Jen (00:01.772)
Jana, welcome to the Mumsafe Movement podcast. I'm so excited you're here. Very excited. Let's go straight into it. So let's kick off with a word to share how you're showing up today.
Jana (00:02.821)
Thank you.
Jana (00:11.973)
Well, unfortunately I have to say it's fatigue. I'm overworked and underpaid at the moment with my beautiful children, not at work as a hospital space, but because my twins have had a massive sleep regression and they are awake from 12 till 3 .30 every night. And so I'm trying to show them. I think the lesson out of this that I'm still here, I'm still kicking, but it's a reality of trying to fit in a whole busy life with a big family.
Jen (00:29.887)
my goodness.
Jen (00:38.318)
Absolutely, and thank you for making time for us instead of going for a nap, because I know it would be on my priority list. Tell me something that you are winning at at the moment. Not sleeping, clearly.
Jana (00:39.449)
Thank you.
Jana (00:50.309)
Actually my obstetrics and gynae training. So I'm now officially a registrar in women's health, which is just an absolute highlight of my life, to be honest. So, and I feel like I'm now finally making real inroads into learning the skills to really look after women in labour. that's a real, it's really lovely because I've been on the sort of outskirts watching it for years and now I'm thick in it. I'm there. I'm the one often, you know, the privilege of catching someone's baby and then giving them to the mum is, it's very much in my, in my trajectory now.
Jen (01:20.12)
Wow, I'm super excited to dig into what that means to you and where you wanna take things and how you wanna change things. I'm gonna stay on track right at the moment though. Tell me something that you're working on.
Jana (01:26.383)
Thank
Jana (01:30.458)
fitness again. So I took two years off after I had the twins and I'm actively back in the gym.
Jen (01:38.85)
Nice. Do you do classes or do you do your own thing? Like what's your jam?
Jana (01:42.371)
I'm a class girl. like to be told what to do at five o 'clock in the morning. So the last thing I want to have to do is think about it.
Jen (01:50.926)
Yeah, nice. I'm with you at the moment. joined a, we moved up to Queensland about 18 months ago and I spent six months training in my garage and then I decided I had to get out and actually socialize with people and yeah, get accountable and be told what to do exactly the same. Yeah. Nice.
Jana (02:03.077)
But it's part of it too, isn't it? In that social, I guess, they're, when they, know, they're going to show up. And if you don't, it's that sort of advocacy and accountability program that comes with training with a group of other people.
Jen (02:16.046)
It really is and there's nothing like I was, we did a workout yesterday and I was the last to finish and I think 10 years ago I would have been like so embarrassed about being the last one to finish. And yesterday it was like, I'm just going to get through this thing. It's really hard, but it's, you don't get that on your own. I would have quit halfway through if I'd have been in my garage probably.
Jana (02:21.701)
Thank
Jana (02:32.217)
Yeah, exactly.
Jen (02:36.352)
Yeah, cool. Jana, I almost when I was writing my notes and writing my questions, I almost don't know where to start because I was looking at your life. And to me as an outsider looking in, you've done so much stuff. And you've succeeded in so many things like you've been to the Olympics. And we've obviously well, I was consumed by the gymnastics and the athletics in the in this year's Olympics. How would you describe your life so far? And what has led you to where you are today?
Jana (03:02.137)
Hmm, that's a great question. Chaos, in all truth. It's been, I've had a lot of fun and well lived. I often talk about myself as a bit of a mountain climber though, and I don't actually mean that in necessarily a good way because I feel like I'm always chasing a goal and then sometimes I forget to stop and look at the view at the top before I take on another one. It's actually something I'm actively trying to change and be able to smell the roses a little bit more in life because...
Jen (03:09.59)
haha
Jana (03:26.179)
I feel like there was a lot of extrinsic drive as a young person. I've always been someone who's been desperate to be liked and therefore, you know, thought by doing impressive things that that might make you look more, I don't know, good on the outside. In fact, in Australia, it does the opposite, ironically. So yeah, so I think it's been an amazing career, but it's definitely been so full that at times I have very few memories of some of the highlights.
Jen (03:55.807)
With the extrinsic motivation, do you see that in your children now? Do you see different, some of them are intrinsically motivated, others are trying to do things for other people? Or is it, I don't know.
Jana (04:07.257)
Yeah, think, well, I'm trying to protect them from that. I'm not sure. mean, I'm very intrinsically driven too. think I had a bit of, ironically, I don't think you, you know, you say the left brain, right brain thing is the closest I can get from an example that I feel like I had both. Cause obviously I had a lot of drive, very driven, like very intrinsically driven in terms of my passion and my commitment to something. But if I sat really honestly with myself and said, why am I doing this? Some of the things I achieved was to hopefully be liked or respected by others, which
Jen (04:13.016)
Mmm.
Jen (04:22.391)
Yeah.
Jana (04:34.521)
you we all do that. We're human. And ultimately we don't live alone. And we, you know, if you, if you lived on an island by yourself, you legitimately would only do things that serve yourself. But that has been something I've noticed in myself. And so I'm trying really hard to at least acknowledge that in my children. So, you know, it doesn't matter if they're the best in the race or like my girls, little one of my little girls, NAPLAN results came back and she's midfield. So we celebrated her just being midfield because that's great. It doesn't, she doesn't have to be the best at everything.
Jen (04:51.374)
Hmm.
Jana (05:01.093)
Whereas I grew up in, I love my parents and my mother is my greatest advocate in life, but I grew up in a family which definitely valued success very highly. And so when you constantly have that environment where you're very much praised when you win a race or praise when you bring back an A plus, that's what little kids chase. And so I feel lucky that I think I learned that as a young mum, probably through making mistakes with my first son, who's now in his HSC year, of course, and grown up.
But I tried to sort of push him the same way my parents pushed me and he's a very different animal to me. And so it just broke him. And I recognize that it wasn't actually a good way to parent. And so, no, I don't think my children are as extrinsically driven as I was. I think they do genuinely like themselves on the inside, mostly. And so therefore, are more motivated to do things they like rather than just because it would make mom happy. And you know what? It sometimes doesn't sit right with me. I'm like, damn, why don't you go do something that like, know, go join the club or.
Jen (05:54.264)
you
Jana (05:58.298)
But as long as they're happy at end of the day, and I think the greatest success that you can give your kids is that they can legitimately look in the mirror and say, like who I am and I like what I stand for and I'm making good decisions that support my family and friends.
Jen (06:14.572)
Yeah, I have to agree with the, like neither of my kids are very athletic, like they have the capability to be, but they don't care. And I'm like, what happened? Like, why aren't you out there joining the things and even just the pushing and doing uncomfortable things. And my son's like, I don't need to be uncomfortable. Like I'm quite happy how I am. And it's a huge life lesson to me to go, you're not my journey, you're your journey. Yeah. And I have to kind of hold that space somehow when it's, yeah.
Jana (06:35.255)
Not happy?
Jana (06:42.733)
Yeah.
Jen (06:44.856)
Yeah, it's crazy. While we're on this kind of topic of enoughness, you have just written a new book and I had this to talk about kind of at the end, but we've segued there right now. What was it that made you write this book at this point in your life?
Jana (06:58.469)
think it was that recognition that I am enough in the skin that I'm in and it's taken 40 years to get there. So, as I said, for so long, I was sort of chasing that. Am I good enough? Do I deserve this? And then even looking at some of the failures, you know, losing the Olympic Games and things like that. And why did those things happen? And was I responsible? Did I sabotage myself? So lots of, lots of questions that didn't sit nicely in your gut. And thankfully, when I graduated as a doctor, I feel like so much of that fell by the wayside. I remember
walking across the stage as they do the whole congratulations, Dr. Hianna Pittman. And you're like, my gosh. But I recognized that there was a real turning point in my life that I started some real, I've always been quite introspective, but that I started being really honest with myself around what were some of the things along the way that contributed to my loneliness, that contributed to my downfalls and my failures, but also to who I was as a person. And that some of the things that I thought were flawed were actually my success. they were, they were the reasons why
I got to where I am, my emotion, my fast pace, my passion, which I always thought was a real negative, turns out to be literally the reason why most of the things happened.
Jen (08:10.379)
What are some of the key messages you want other women to take? I'm not just going to say women, other people that choose to read your book to take away.
Jana (08:17.01)
Fear is a weapon, think is one of the first things I talk a lot about fear and discomfort around that that is a part of normal part of life. And it's something that we can learn to live with and then learn to excel at is dealing with that fear. And I don't mean fear of doing something hard. mean, fear of self fear of failing fear of being judged fear of not feeling good enough. That's a real fear that we live with all the time. And I think what comes through that is that we've all got something wonderful to give and all got something to contribute.
We all carry baggage from the past and most of us just sort of hang onto it like a ball and chain and it sort of just drives you down and you think, gosh, but you know, I made that poor decision and all. didn't back myself there or that person's so much prettier than me, but 90 % of time you can't change those things. So it's truly being able to sit there with your discomfort and say, actually, I really back myself that I may not have made the right decision at the time, but I've got so much to give and I have, and I'm so worthy of the future success and future life that I want to live.
Jen (09:17.434)
I think the word worthy really stands out for me and it's worthy of all the things that you're capable of and that self -worth. And if we move into self -worth, like as a female, it's so wrapped up in so many different things, whether it's career, body image, know, parenting, all that kind of thing. Absolutely. Yeah.
Jana (09:33.539)
Exactly. Yeah. And I think we also, a lot of us in this generation grew up with the whole, I don't know if you have it, but when I was a kid, my parents would always say, know, someone's always got it worse than you, all the kids, you know, over in Africa that have no food. And so we don't give ourselves permission to feel, like we all feel sad and we all feel disappointed. Everybody gets depressed, but most of us go, well, I've got a good life. I've got nothing to complain about, but it's our life. It's our truth. It's what we've lived and we haven't.
You know, most of us haven't lived in a, you know, with no roof over your head. Some of us have, but most of us haven't. therefore we only have our own experiences to be guided by and all those emotions are real. Pushing them away is not going to help.
Jen (10:14.284)
Yeah, no, it's not. And it really is that dichotomy of being able to sit with and be okay with the discomfort that you're in and acknowledge that people are in worse off situations and still be okay with where you are. It's really, yeah. Yeah, I find myself at the table. Like my mum was one of those, know, there's children, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, your kids aren't eating their dinner. It's not gonna serve my kids to tell them that there's children starving or they shouldn't be eating their food because there's other children that are.
Jana (10:34.893)
No!
Jana (10:39.108)
Yeah.
Jen (10:41.324)
Yeah, I think there's a lot in our generation of parenting that we're really kind of recognizing, not that we were brought up in a bad way, it's just a very different way and a less aware way potentially than we want to raise our children. And it's real fascinating. Yeah. Especially then when you've got parents that are parenting over your parenting as well. You competed in three Olympics. That's right, isn't it? I've got my...
Jana (10:59.727)
So true.
Jana (11:08.389)
That's it.
Jen (11:10.968)
Got my notes right. And you became the first woman to compete in both the winter and the summer games. How did that feel?
Jana (11:18.543)
pretty amazing. have to say I liked I mean, don't get me wrong, I love track and field because I was there to win and bring home medals for Australia. Whereas Bob said was a lot more fun. It was the team you're in like running and competing in the hurdles was always stressful and always high pressure. Whereas the Bob said the people were amazing. They were so even the know, the chumpies who obviously has passed away now and the Lydia Lucilla's of the world who are extraordinary athletes. They're just so down, so down to earth and and
It was just a very different environment to go and feel like you were supported in part of a small team. So I loved the Winter Olympics. If I had to go back and do it again, I'd still go back to bobsled, think, rather than back and forth. But yeah, look, it was a real honour to be obviously one of the first female, but obviously we had a male before me do it. But I don't think it's very common to do both summer and winter. And I think if you can, you should definitely give it a try.
Jen (11:52.515)
Hmm.
Jen (11:58.733)
Nice.
Jen (12:07.725)
Mm.
Jen (12:12.046)
Absolutely, absolutely. And then you had your first baby in 2006. And I read an article about you going for a run on the day that he was born. Tell me about that.
Jana (12:15.791)
That's it.
Jana (12:21.349)
Well, look now as a training gynaecologist, I don't advocate that obviously. I didn't know any better. I was only 21, 22, but I think to put the caveat there that I was also training full -time as an elite athlete for the whole of my pregnancy. But Jen, it was at a time when there was no knowledge out there. There's a lot more information now. He's 18. So I remember going to my sports doctor at the time who's one of the best in the world and him sort of I don't know what you can and can't do. And my physio was like, well, I can correct your legs, but I'm not really.
Jen (12:32.268)
Yeah.
Jen (12:37.336)
Mm.
Jana (12:51.151)
comfortable touching your pelvis because I don't know, there's a baby in there. So it's just like, it was a very different era. And so I think I definitely overdid it. I trained too hard during pregnancy. I mean, saying that my baby's beautiful, he's said he's about to do his HSC, so he's fine and my body was fine. But postnatally, I had a lot of pelvic pelvic floor issues, a lot of incontinence. And I do feel like that was the sort of down trend of my sports career, because from that point onwards, I was riddled with injuries now.
I've always been a bit injury prone, but there was imbalances that I think I sustained through pregnancy that weren't adjusted and corrected properly postnatally that I kept running on. And because the engine was so big, but the chassis was weak, within 12 months I'd done my calf and my knee and my back was out. And so then you had all these little what we would call now, especially in the fitness industry of those tweaky injuries or that, you know, that posterior chain stuff that doesn't work well enough to support the capacity of trying to push through the body.
And so think in hindsight, I would have still trained every day, but I think I would have taken the intensity down considerably.
Jen (13:59.799)
So do you feel like your... fuck I hate the words like issues and problems like I hate them and I don't know what else to use. Considerations like if you've got other words to throw at me. Do you feel like it all started after your first pregnancy and your first birth or...
Jana (14:02.946)
Yes.
Jana (14:15.449)
There's a contributing factor. you look at it, look at it, you look at the outcome. The outcome was multiple injuries where you lose the Olympic games. As I said, it wasn't just that I definitely was an over trainer, over thinker. My off life track wasn't always quite where it should be for where I was because I was getting divorced and all sorts of stuff on the sidelines. So that definitely contributes to your injuries and things as well. Sleep deprivation does an enormous amount. And I think women, you know, especially if you've got a baby right now, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm still in there with two and a half years after my twins are born. And that
Jen (14:18.912)
Yeah.
Jana (14:44.289)
your body doesn't understand the difference between physical and psychological stress. So even if you put the three components together, you've got a baby waking all through the night so you're not sleeping, so your recovery is terrible. You can never feed yourself quick enough or good enough food because you're so busy and tired and fatigued that you're not actually preparing and fueling yourself well enough. On the background of a completely different body, in that all your progesterone and estrogen and the natural hormonal cycles have changed dramatically. Your whole lumbar lordosis, as so to say, to pregnancy has changed. Your muscle mass has changed. Everything's...
developed and changed. you're and then you've got whether I had a massive rectus diastasis in my abdomen, which means pretty much I had split my rectus apart. So there's so much that could have contributed to multiple strings of injuries from there. But at any point, Jen, I could have stopped and said, my goodness, that's likely related to pregnancy, and then readjusted and gone back in and done three or four months of rehab and probably short circuited that like you look at Jen.
Jen Jen who's over at what's her name? Genevieve Titov who's over at, what's Genevieve's last name? I'm forgetting her name. The amazing distance runner from Melbourne. What's, having a mental block. She's married to the other distance runner. She had a baby two years ago and she just ran at the Olympic games beautifully with fewer injuries than most. Apologies for forgetting her surname for a second, but sleep deprivation, see? So several athletes are now coming back after sport, but they've got such great.
Jen (15:59.214)
Mm.
Jana (16:08.239)
trainers and such great input into how to rehab that I think that the pregnancy is a benefit. So, whereas in my case, it was me and my husband, that's it. There was no physios, no doctors, it was just him and I trying to work it out. And that wasn't as effective as it should have been. Jen LeCave, that's it.
Jen (16:21.314)
Mm
Jen (16:28.374)
Yeah, think generally, yeah, you got it good. I picked up on what I just heard you say was you could have stopped and it's like, this is such a, it's still, mean, I know that there's more people sharing more information in this space now and more women are looked after in better ways. And you don't know what you don't know, right? So at no point in that journey, could you potentially have stopped to go, let me do this different because you've got no more.
education around how to do it different because we're just not given that as standard. And we definitely, I had my baby two years later and I remember walking out of the dead walkout of the delivery suite and him saying to me, your pelvic floor was too strong. And I'm like, now what I know is, dude, you should have told me my pelvic floor was too tight. And this is what we could have done prenatally in order to prepare for that. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a fascinating, fascinating conversation.
Jana (17:12.772)
Yeah.
Bye.
Jana (17:25.849)
And that on itself, what you said is a big thing because the pelvic floor tightness is not something we talk about well enough. And a lot of people like you and I who are training heavily through pregnancy end up with levator and eye injuries. Even I had an intact perineum. So that sounds really weird for those who maybe don't understand. mean, I had no tearing other than some grazes, but internally I'd done so much damage because of the, how hard I pushed, because I only had to push several times. then, but then I was having so much pelvic floor tightness that it just meant.
Jen (17:27.111)
when you went...
Jen (17:35.067)
Mm.
Jana (17:52.613)
long term I had a lot more injuries than if I had, as you said, maybe backed off at around 28 -29 weeks and had less tension in my pelvis.
Jen (18:04.034)
Yeah, so you didn't even have tearing to go, there's no external injury in order to, so then how did you learn about, about, did you have an, an evulsion or? Okay. Yep.
Jana (18:13.325)
Yes, so I had a levator and I have ocean and then it's all inside. So at around seven months after pregnancy, I finally found a physiotherapist up on the Gold Coast who was looking at this as a space. And it was one of the most uncomfortable procedures procedures investigations I think I'd had where they actually know was no Jen, it was after I won the World Champs already. So I literally went back to full time training trained with this injury.
would literally lose control of my bladder over every in every single race that I did full control but because I was like 22 I was like well you know this is what it is that this is what you deal with postnatally so did nothing about it but then I started getting the injuries and I started getting high hamstring injuries and lower back pain and all these weird things and I'm like what is causing this I don't know what it is and I just can barely train and so I found the physio who then did some internal physiotherapy and found the massive bulge of where the labator was was ruptured off and had kind of recoiled back into a big lump of muscle and there was a big gap
Jen (18:59.118)
Hmm.
Yep.
Jana (19:09.405)
in my lower pelvic floor. So she could recognize that it was, was too late to repair it because the evulsion had happened and it, can't repair them anyway, to be honest from the inside like that. All you can do is the pelvic floor work. But basically she, she recognized that with, with treatments over the next three to four months, she treated it and the incontinence went away completely. So I was like, again, that's interesting. So
Jen (19:31.374)
Wow. That's very interesting. And do you wear a pessary or have you ever used a pessary for support? Yeah, okay.
Jana (19:34.981)
anymore. We got to the point where she was, yeah, we did, but I don't have to anymore. So was one of those training, training and training and training to make sure that the, and I still have, look, you know, if I go on high, if I go and jump on the trampoline or something, I'll still unfortunately have an accident, but we're heavy lifting in the gym occasionally, but you have to be really fatigued for it to happen now. Whereas, which I think is really exciting because you think I've had six vaginal births to think that, you know, I'm in my early forties and I can still 90 % of the time have no concerns with.
with incontinence where I was at that stage, I was 22 post one birth and I would pee myself when I sneezed. there's a lot to learn in that sort of training and physiological space post birth. But even then I still kept pushing hard. So the minute things got better, I went back into harder and harder and harder training. And I think your body is very different and you have to train differently after you've had a baby.
Jen (20:13.295)
Mm.
Jen (20:32.352)
There's so many things that are going around in my head, like had someone gotten hold of you in your pregnancy and taught you how to relax your pelvic floor, potentially different outcome. And then the other thing that's going in my head is, you know, after your pelvic floor retraining, there is, I know that there's a research paper that looks at the pelvic floor contraction before you, before you run. And it's like, it has a better contraction.
as you're going into a run, if so long as the pelvic floor is functioning well. So I wonder whether with all your rehab and then with the high volume of training that actually helped you to mend your pelvic floor even more than the average person might've done. Yeah.
Jana (21:06.597)
Yeah, that would make sense. But there's also good research now out there that's helping women realise that, because we always used to think that someone has a baby and your pelvic floor is never going to be as good again. But there's some really nice evidence coming out of an Australian paper recently actually that actually shows that if with the right treatment and with the right physiotherapy and involvement, your pelvic floor can be good, if not better than pre -pregnancy, which
To me, when I first read it, I'm like, that's a load of crap. That's not possible because you've had a head come through and the stretching of all the ligaments and all the muscles, I don't believe in it. But when I looked at the research, what they were kind of proposing was that, let's be really honest, how many of us really focused on our pelvic floor work before we had a baby? No, I did not. Like, you know, I trained, I did it, but I didn't sit there and do my Kegels every day. Postnatally, women do. So it's actually that our pre -existing pelvic floor as a young teenage girl, we don't do much. No one even thinks about it. We don't even talk about incontinence as.
Jen (21:55.704)
Hmm.
Jana (22:01.189)
20 year old. It doesn't become part of the conversation until you've had a baby or you start having leakage for something else like obesity when you're older. So that's where the research is not quite right. In other words, your pelvic floor is probably not as good as you would have had if you had have trained well before pregnancy, but that you can get it to a much better level than most people think.
Jen (22:24.57)
It's interesting and when you think about our young women that are now exercising to a higher level than many of them have ever done before, we've got more and more cases of hypertonic pelvic floor in our young women who are experiencing incontinence and then they've got to have the baby, hopefully without birth trauma and then come back to learn to relax the pelvic floor to contract the pelvic floor. So then there's a whole body of work that needs to be done in high school, right?
Jana (22:33.209)
this one.
Jana (22:46.81)
Not to mention the girls that have chronic pelvic pain and endometriosis which already have such tension in their lower pelvis as well. There's a lot of women out there that struggle in this space, whether you're an elite athlete or just going to the gym once or twice a week.
Jen (22:56.322)
Mmm.
Jen (23:04.814)
Yeah. Yana, when you, you went on to do SAS and that's when I, looked back at my messages and I was like, that's when I first kind of said, Hey, you're amazing. And it's back in 2021, which was, which is super cool that we're actually chatting now. Tell me about your SAS experience. Cause that was six months after baby number one, two, three, four. Is that right? Maybe four. and knowing what you had known from
Jana (23:24.992)
Yes, that was cool.
Jana (23:33.625)
Thanks.
Jen (23:33.794)
Like how much did you know by that point in terms of the way that your body was recovering differently and before you went into SAS? Yep.
Jana (23:38.406)
Yeah, I mean, this is a bit contradictory from what we've already been talking about, is, but it is what it is. I always own my truth in that space. I knew the risk going into that show was going to be high and I knew that I wasn't going to do my body any favors. I guess the thing I did know was that I could recover from it post the SAS experience. For background, I was actually supposed to be on series one and found out I was pregnant during the show. So they had to basically kick me out and stop all the filming of that space and then COVID hit and they cancelled that scene.
And so I was contracted to do the show 12 months later. and obviously at that stage, Charlie was five, five and a half months old. So the risk was that I was going to have incontinence on the show, which I did as you know, and I very openly discussed it so that more women in Australia would talk about it as well. But there was no way in five months, I was going to have my body fit enough to do that show. It wasn't going to be possible. And so I guess I sat there with the question of, am I going to do more damage? Probably not. I was fit enough and strong enough to.
Jen (24:04.536)
wow.
Jana (24:33.025)
maintain it but it wasn't going to manage it well. And so I thought why not give it a go, honor my brother who was an ex -Afghani veteran and you know I've always been in love with the army and things like that so the opportunity to do something is close to SAS and it was amazing let's be honest Jan like I got to do some of the coolest things I've ever done. It was amazing. still can. But yeah so it was one of the highlights of my life. really
Jen (24:53.519)
Absolutely. I would have done it. I would have done the exact same thing.
Jana (24:59.845)
truly loved being on that show. Would have loved to have finished it obviously and I was so close at the end. But what it did for the conversation around postpartum health I think was really important.
Jen (25:14.566)
I agree and whether regardless of which side people sit on because it's very easy to criticize from back here and I think we had this conversation before we even you know started recording today of you know we can sit here and we can imagine the perfect situations but what's really important that we don't do is judge anyone shame anyone for the decisions that they decide to to do with their body and elevating the conversation and making sure as many women
are educated in this space as possible to then make the right decision for them, regardless of what we think is the most important thing. What did the, sorry.
Jana (25:45.477)
Yeah, but I didn't train that much in that. So that pregnancy I was very careful on the postnatal incline was quite quick. But during pregnancy, I was very careful. didn't push after 25 weeks. I backed off my training considerably. yeah, so go ahead.
Jen (26:04.056)
Do you feel like that made a difference to the birth or?
Jana (26:05.093)
I mean, that birth was so easy. It was a beautiful water birth and he came out in 30 minutes. So I was like, I can't complain about it. my recovery was amazing. So, but come on guys, it's my fourth, fourth labor. In obstetrics we call that a proven pelvis. And yeah, was, it was, I was never going to have a difficulty with that. Well, I mean, sometimes people do, but rarely does someone with that many well -oiled vaginas have issues having babies.
Jen (26:13.454)
wow. No.
Jen (26:20.396)
It's gonna come out fast.
Okay.
Jen (26:37.418)
Yep, yep, yep, it's a bonus. What was the reaction to like the producers and things on SAS? Did they encourage you to pull back? Did they talk to you at all about pelvic health?
Jana (26:43.813)
at all? No, well they didn't, they have no contact with you at all during the show. So it was, it's one of the only reality shows where you really don't have any contact with anyone. The doctor checked on me a few times. He was a great, he's an ex actual SAS soldier. So he pulled back a couple of times and just checked on me. This wasn't actually advertised on the show, but on day 11, I've day 11 or 12, I passed out. And it was actually because I'd
got my first postnatal period, obviously I just stopped breastfeeding before I went on the show. And I thought my period wouldn't come for a few weeks, but it actually came and I don't know if you remember, but it comes with a vengeance the first time, like it's so heavy and yuck. And we were doing such heavy exercise that day. And so I actually, I think I just lost too much blood and hadn't eaten and my blood sugar was really low. So I fainted and that was the only time they got close to, I think, pulling me out. And I think that's why in the end they took my number the next day, because I sort of looked at it thought, we know she's postpartum. She's done and dusted.
could let it go a little longer, but is it dangerous? Is it safe? And you know, ultimately they made the decision to withdraw me, but it was only like 30 minutes before the finish. I was like, come on guys. The last thing was such an easy exercise to it. I'm like, that's not fair.
Jen (27:47.182)
Mmm.
Jen (27:51.555)
It's it's.
Jen (27:57.326)
to have you actually decide to do it that early postpartum and get so far. Like if you'd been out in the first couple of weeks, then fine, but let it go the whole way.
Jana (28:00.001)
Yeah.
Jana (28:04.243)
But it created, if you think about it from the producer's perspective, it created more drama. I think Australia got more invested because I got kicked out than if I had have made it to the end. So I think that was a fairly clever on their part.
Jen (28:20.662)
Yeah did you did were there any conversations in the lead up did you go and see a pelvic health physio like what did you do in order to prepare your body in a really short amount of time?
Jana (28:24.527)
That's it.
Yep, definitely. So I started seeing my physiotherapist probably about 24 weeks in pregnancy. And then we trained almost daily after the pregnancy for the first probably six weeks and then I went back to full training. So she cleared me to go back to full training. Most of the time she doesn't clear someone until 10 weeks postnatally. But we knew we didn't have the time. I think, and this is kind of the conversation you and I were having before we got on.
Jen (28:44.312)
Mm.
Jana (28:53.573)
people can't judge their postpartum journey by mine because I have done elite sport for 20, 30 years. So my body has a lot of muscle memory. And once I was firing correctly and we could test that my firing was right and I wasn't compensating, then I was cleared to go back to sport again. But even then I still had the deficiencies, otherwise I wouldn't have had such bad incontinence on the show. So there's a point where you run 5Ks into 50 burpees, doesn't matter how strong your pelvic floor is, most women would still have an accident in that context.
Jen (29:25.578)
What was the, I guess the driving point for you, if we switch from SAS to going through your career as an athlete and then choosing to go into the medical profession and then choosing women's health? Did you know women's health before you went into medicine or was that always, did it come later?
Jana (29:46.469)
No, so I wanted to be a doctor when I was a kid. So I never actually wanted to be an elite athlete. I always just wanted to be a doctor. But then, you know, running for your country is a pretty shiny goal to have. So I fell in love with that when I was 14. And that sort of took over for 10 years. And towards the end of my sports career, I'd already had Cornelis, as you know, for as a better and gone through that midwifery led journey. And, and my amazing obstetrician Norman Blumenthal back in the day then was very
happy to field questions about medicine to me. So I asked him all the time what it's like, what it's like to be an obstetrician. This is so amazing. And so when my career ended, I was, as I said, quite disappointed with not winning the Olympics and needed something to soften the blow of losing three Olympic games in a row, which was rock really, really hard. I'm going to be honest with you. I'd also unfortunately had three miscarriages by that point. And so I was just very fascinated with the what with why and what happens and how hard that was. And
Jen (30:36.098)
Mmm.
Jana (30:42.405)
and trying to see whether that maybe was a research field that I could go into. So there was so many things coming in different directions that my mother beautifully said, look, when you're a kid, you know, you used to want to be a doctor. Why don't you give it a shot? so, you know, Bob's your uncle, I guess I tried the failed the first time, of course, because nothing comes easily if you want something hard enough. I failed the entry exam the first time. 12 months rolled around and mum said, give it another crack. So I did. And thankfully got in the second round. And so obviously, you then toss up orthopedic surgery or
or women's health because you've got your sports background and think sports sports doctor or orthopaed would make sense. But again, I had a fourth miscarriage, which was so I started really looking into why things happen and looking at research into that space, fell into the uterine transplant research, which is which you may or may not know we are now doing in Australia. So I guess that was very motivating. Yeah, that's in middle of medical school. So I was already getting very involved in that sort of women's health space. Actually, I should also say just before medical school, I did a year of midwifery as well. So
Jen (31:32.91)
I saw that, it's amazing.
Jana (31:41.005)
And just before that, I did a doula course. So guess I was already in the whole, love women. So yeah, I'm looking, if you ever had the question of regret, one of my only regrets is that I didn't finish my midwifery because as much as I love being obstetrics and gynae, most of the babies we birth are high risk now. And they're like, you you come in at the last minute when the woman's been doing her best for hours and
Jen (31:46.838)
Okay, you were going that way. Absolutely.
Jana (32:06.967)
and you know, and the little one needs help out. Whereas I like, just like being there with women for the labor. That's the part that I love most. But as a private down the track, I'll be able to do some with woman for the, I'll annoy the midwives more. Sorry, guys, you know, I love you, but I'll annoy them more because I want to come in and be with her for the last hour before the birth. But we'll see. But yeah, so it's always been a, it's always been a real tug of war between working in women's health and or working in sport. And in the long run, I just couldn't, I love sport, but I just
Jen (32:16.166)
Mmm.
Jen (32:30.221)
Yeah.
Jana (32:36.131)
It doesn't surpass being part of that journey of infertility and gynae cancer and all the, you know, the endometriosis and the birthing. There's so much amazing diversity in women's health. And unfortunately, Jen, I've lived so many of them too. Like I've lost babies, I've been through infertility, I've been through high -grade cervical change, is, but you know, pap smear, if the people don't remember what used to be, it's now called the cervical screening test, but it used to be the old pap smear. Almost had to have a hysterectomy for that at one point. So,
think when you get touched by so many women's health issues, incontinence, birth, like, you know, it's hard to say no to something that feels like it's calling me so much.
Jen (33:17.659)
Absolutely. are some of the things, as we talk a lot and we'll talk about the things that we want to change in a second, but what are some of the things that you think that we're doing really well in the spaces that you're interested in in Australia?
Jana (33:27.749)
Now we're doing very well around the discussions like this. Like I think we're quite an open group to talk about taboo topics. That wasn't the same 10 years ago. So I think it's people like yourself who are making inroads in this space to change that. We obviously have an amazing medical system. know, the opportunity that women have to experience birth here the way they want to is very high. You've got your, you've got your dual -led, your home birthing in Australia, which is particularly at my hospital is.
I mean, it's unfortunately for only low risk women because of the risks associated, but it's available, which in other places is not. You've been with free led programs right up to your private obstetric care. So I think the opportunity for women to very much have a big say in her birth is pretty special. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm aware of all the birth trauma and everything that's going around at the moment and that women still, there's still a long way to go in that space. But at least we have opportunities. Whereas one of my idols in life is Catherine Hamlin. She's obviously passed away now, but she was an obstetrician gynaecologist in Ethiopia.
Jen (34:23.721)
yeah.
Jana (34:24.26)
She's a bit of a hero to me. You know, the women over there are 13 and 14 going through labours and having horrific birth injuries. The babies are often not even surviving. And then, you know, she's in continent front and back and, you know, exiled out of her village. Like you look at the differences in what we have. We don't lose women very often. We rarely lose babies. And so think we are very lucky to have that space. The fact we have such great women's health physios here, that's a huge thing.
and so many midwives who are keen and invested in hypnobirthing and she birthing and calm birthing and all the different ways to support women. Those programs make a huge difference in empowering our ladies to feel like they can have a big say in their birth environment.
Jen (35:07.567)
I've done a bit of work with the Barbara May Foundation, so very similar to the Hamlin Foundation. think it's, want to, yeah, I want to walk up Kilimanjaro. They do a trip up Kilimanjaro for, to raise money. So that's on my, on my list to do, do it, let's do it. I should do it. I do. It's, that's.
Jana (35:08.825)
You know, Andrew Browning's amazing.
Jana (35:18.297)
I'll go with you. Yeah, well, if you actually want to do that. Yeah, if you want to do it, that's that's I was literally talking to Andrew Brown a few weeks ago. He's I mean, he is for your listeners, people be like, who is this person? But please don't cut it out. Because Andrew Brownie has replaced Catherine not replaced. He had trained with her. He knew her, her son quite well. And he was one of the only people who actually was actually at her funeral a couple of years ago.
Jen (35:30.711)
Yep.
Jana (35:43.377)
representing Australia and representing the Barbara May Foundation. they are, they do the same thing. So they are literally over there creating and actively changing the platform of these little women over there who have horrific lives guys. And so that's so cool that you do that too. So I've just been in this book in my school as well, which is his surgical book that is written for Figo. So incredible man, very humble, which is why people don't know his name, perhaps as much as Catherine, but I mean, so was Catherine. was extraordinarily humble woman.
Jen (35:57.379)
Yep.
I've got his book on my shelf, yep.
Jen (36:07.212)
Yeah, right.
Jana (36:12.921)
But yep, absolutely amazing. yes, if you want to do that, or if any other women out there want to jump on board, we could do it as a team and try and raise.
Jen (36:21.686)
Let's do it. Let's do it. This is what I needed. I wanted to do it for my 40th and that's gone. But it's definitely still on my list. So I think we should do it. If we switched from what we're doing well and with utmost respect to the medical industry and pelvic, like the fitness industry and everyone else that we potentially criticize when we have these conversations, what are the key things, Yana, that you feel like we could be doing better to change the outcomes for women either in fitness or...
Jana (36:25.029)
That it.
Jana (36:50.674)
That's a tricky one. We'll go with the easy one, is actually women in fitness. It's just information. we have, you know, as much as I love social media and I, you know, I I hate the word I'm an influencer, but I've got a number of followers. So therefore it makes you one. People listen to not necessarily the right advice that people need to be listening to someone like yourself who has the training and has the expertise, but there's so many.
Jen (36:50.764)
women birthing in general.
Jana (37:11.513)
fitness warriors out there that maybe or may not be doing the right things. And so it's really hard for women to not be guided by this amazing woman postnatal. It looks brilliant, but learn from my bad example. I looked amazing after having a baby the first time. I won a world title literally eight months after having a baby and then paid for it. And so you don't, you don't see the full picture through a social media post. So I'm hoping through things like this podcast, like this, I'm actually in the middle of starting my own as well. we might be able to actually inform women properly around how to.
motivate themselves during pregnancy to reduce things like diabetes and weight gain in pregnancy that can sometimes have adverse outcomes like hypertension. So, but also make a woman feel like actually I'm okay to do this, you know, they might be looking at me thinking, should I be doing this exercise at pregnancy? Yes, I did it pre pre pregnancy. So 90 % of the time, you're going to be safe to doing it while you are pregnant. So it's that real yin and yang between pregnancy is not an illness, but for some women it is. And so we need to be careful about how we differentiate that space.
Birth environment, I don't know, there's so much media stuff out there, but how we can support women is trying to bridge the gap between the fear that we've currently got around birth and the active acknowledgement that 99 % of the time when you're seeing your midwife or your doctor, they're there because they love being with a woman and they love sharing that experience with you and wholeheartedly they'll be putting your best interests at heart.
Whereas birth is not easy. Having done it six times, it is the hardest thing you'll ever do. It'll be the worst and the greatest day of your life. Whereas I think so many of us, particularly the first time we go into labor, come in with the expectation that it's going to be beautiful and roses. It's going to hurt a bit, but you're going to be in a, you're to be this powerful goddess. That's just going to take on the pain and just nail it. And you're to come out with no damage to your perineum. You're going to be back in the gym by three weeks. And the trauma comes from feeling like you've let yourself down, but
no woman lets herself down in labor. Even if it's a planned caesarian section, is an empowering decision that woman has made. And so when you walk out of that labor space, all of us have doubt. I still have doubt about my twins because they came really early and perhaps I could have, you my labor started and I wished I could have stopped it for a little while or not broken the waters and waited longer and then they wouldn't have had more time in NICU. We all do that. It's human. But I think the saddest thing is where the woman walks out saying I've had severe birth trauma.
Jana (39:38.039)
And largely it's because the expectation going into that space wasn't incorrect. And so somehow finding a way to empower women to know this is going to be hard. It's going to be rough. Things go wrong. It's why the obstetric and midwifery community exists is because for some reason, whether you're religious or not, God did not bless us with an easy birth pathway. and that's the hard part is I love sitting with women and talking to them truthfully because I've had so many about
Jen (39:46.456)
Mm.
Jana (40:06.341)
what birth can be like and I've also seen probably over 10 ,000 births now and some women walk in at fully dilated push a baby out and go home five hours later. Wonderful if that's you that is amazing you're a super what we call them unicorn mums right but if that's what someone's expectation of labor is they're going to no matter what changes they're going to be sorely disappointed because most people at some point in labor the doctors will come and visit you because your trace will be a bit off or you're not progressing quite as fast.
Jen (40:22.174)
Unicorn.
Jen (40:30.37)
Mm.
Jana (40:33.983)
the women are so disappointed, but they're still doing a great job. They're there, they're actively participating, they're doing the best that they can, their baby's doing the best that they can. And the doctors and midwives are doing the best that they can to try and ensure that it's going to be a safe passage into the world. But lately reading all the media stuff has been really hard for a lot of my colleagues because we look at it and it's this, it's a hit, it's a, it's a woman versus us situation. Whereas we want to be woman with woman or woman with man situation and, and be on the team together. And so I think the biggest thing we can
What one is that?
Jen (41:05.143)
How do I?
Yeah, and it's like when you when you're talking, I'm like, we need to have these conversations that are not creating fear. And I think that, you know, medical professionals sometimes don't want to have the conversation about what could go wrong, because it creates fear. And then there's the implications of that. So it's it's how do we manage these, those exact conversations from an empowering perspective? And how to how do we another question could be is how do we as exercise professionals, because we often, you know, we have these conversations with
Jana (41:13.113)
Yeah.
Jen (41:37.166)
clients and, but it's very hard to speak to medical professionals because we're personal trainers. Like we're kind of getting there with allied health, allied health are now kind of listening to trainers and fitness professionals, but the medical industry still doesn't really want to hear from us. So I guess I've molded my question a little bit from how do we all work together to have those empowering conversations instead of fear -based conversations?
Jana (42:01.797)
You know, it's hard because there is, it's particularly the last five to 10 years, has been, there is a lot of fear around birth and that exponentially creates more fear. And whether that fear is because we don't collaborate, as you say, we don't talk to on the same level, but we also have varying different opinions. You know, some people are very empowered by birth because they have had great birth situations. Whereas you can imagine the doctors, we, as I said before, 90 % time we come into a room when that baby is in danger or that woman is in danger.
So naturally, your, my expectations are always going to be, well, if I intervene now, I'm going to save a life or if I intervene now, I'm going to save trauma and inadvertently sometimes cause it. So it's one of those, it's very hard because we are totally different. You know, I don't see her postnatally when she's in the gym with you crying because she can't make a pelvic floor turn on it. She can't run like she used to, and you're trying to encourage her to have another birth 12 months later, but she's like, no, I want to see her because I'm not going through that. So there is that unfortunate breach and how can we fix it?
Jen (42:32.12)
Mm.
Jana (42:59.361)
attending each other's conferences. You we attend your conferences, you come to our sports, sorry, our Rans Cognitive Spectric conferences where you can kind of get on the same page. We're trying. The Australian Midwifery College this year had me come and speak, which was really nice. And obviously I'm very junior in medicine. But I have the background with being an elite athlete. So it was just a wonderful way to connect with the midwives because we want to be on the same team as well. And often there's a rift there.
I think we're all aware it's happened.
Jen (43:31.768)
Yeah, it's.
Yeah, it's how do we create that, that big conversation because there's so much that we could do as exercise professionals and then you throw the allied health in there as well to make your job during the actual birth process easier if we know about it beforehand and if women are educated before before they get to before they get to labor.
Jana (43:52.271)
I mean, you guys are actively involved in a, you could be, assume you probably already are, from a physio perspective as well though, too, because you'll actually do and implement the training that they're advised to do. And so it's, I guess, being brave enough to have the conversations around, and it doesn't even have to be the medical language. I'm not saying to you, you need to sit down with a woman and go, right, you might have a forceps or you might have a vacuum or you might have a caesarean or you might have an episiote. We're not asking you to do that, but I guess it's one of those, every single woman can help another woman.
by just ensuring she's aware that it doesn't always go to plan and that that's okay. And so for me, and I do that with my women in my, and you can do the same in my clinics. I tell them, you know, I'm junior, my consultant will say the same thing. And obviously there's always going to be different messages you hear from different doctors, but I'm coming here as a mother to say to you, how much information do you want? And then they say, you know, I'm very interested to know about the options in labor and what could and couldn't happen. And someone I'm like, no, I just want to wait and see. I'm just going to let my body do what it does.
And so you can invite the question, would you like to talk about your birth and what that may look like? Would you like to talk now about how much we would recommend you don't, you know, invest in high -intensity exercise straight after birth? Because you've got all that information. Because then they sort of start thinking about those questions around, what's birth going to be like? What's my post -recovery going to be like? Is it okay if I still do nothing three to four months later? Because I did have a really traumatic birth and I have pain in my pelvic region.
or some women have pain in the perineal region for a long time, you know, and if I'm having incontinence or something like that, can I still train? Yes, you can, but guided ideally like someone like you, Jen, you wouldn't just send them out for a run. In that case, you guys come into an enormous play because ideally a woman has the finances and the desire to seek someone out with skills in postnatal training.
which I know a lot of the fitness injuries, there are women and fitness trainers who are keen to invest in that space. So it is one of the most important times in a woman's life is the 12 months postpartum.
Jen (46:01.858)
Yeah, I picked up on a few things then like the, really loved when you said, when I heard you say, would you like to know more? Because I get a lot of trainers, I run a pre postnatal certification and a lot of trainers will go, how do I ask or how do I tell? And it's like, we don't need to ask or tell. We can say, would you like to learn more about your pelvic floor so that we can help to prepare you prenatally and then again postnatally. So I'm taking that away from this conversation. That was really cool.
Jana (46:25.797)
And you'd be surprised most people say yes. Yeah, and then they walk away and because we're having a conversation in medicine around instrumental delivery at the moment around whether we could should consent women before labor. In other words, we know women are 100 % no, I do not want an instrumental birth, and they don't sign the consent before it. And that doesn't mean in during labor, they may not change their mind, but they've also got women who are fully informed in a pregnancy, no hormone like no
Jen (46:31.16)
Mm.
Jen (46:40.045)
Mm.
Jana (46:51.961)
well they're obviously stressed because they're pregnant, but not in active labour where that conversation is really hard to listen and hear to because a lot of them don't even know what it is. They don't understand implications for the baby, don't understand the implications for her, but they also don't understand that if someone is offering you an assisted birth it is because they're really worried about your baby. There is that fear around will we just do it because we've got a time on the clock and blah blah blah but...
And that's really sad because it then makes us afraid to go in a room and offer something when we truly think that the woman is in need of help.
Jen (47:26.63)
Mm, I wish we had a long lot longer to talk because I live in this space of exercise professional and allied health. So pelvic health physio. And when you're talking, my brain is just exploding of like, these are all the ways that we can work together in order and to bring the medical industry in even more and look at what we can do to help women. Because at the end of the day, education is empowerment and our jobs are to figure out how to talk to each other in order to talk to
the women that really do need support. And I always say we want to get to a point where no woman ever says, did nobody tell me? And that conversation could start the day that she falls pregnant or becomes pregnant. Yeah.
Jana (48:01.955)
Yes, love it. And you're right, you guys are in that space for a lot longer than we are. And you see them frequently. So maybe that is going to be the key to helping us as well is that we actually tap into that fitness space. I mean, we also need women just to be encouraged to go and see a fitness professional during pregnancy because then they're guided and doing the right thing in pregnancy. There's a lot of fuel to toy with there.
Jen (48:11.66)
Hmm.
Jen (48:30.271)
There is, is. Yana, if you look or consider what you want to get done moving forward, what would you like your legacy to be when you reach the end of doing all the amazing things?
Jana (48:45.476)
I would love to be like on my deathbed, I would love it love my tombstone to say women's health advocate. So because that's that's my number one goal is to find things like this and to advocate for women and to make women feel as you I think you said it beautifully before never never say they didn't hear the previous you know they never never say why didn't somebody tell me because I want all women to just feel like they have enough information to make good decisions about their body.
And as I said, many, half an hour ago to love the skin that they're in and, and, and feel that they deserve, they deserve good opportunities in life. So a lot of that comes about openly talking about women's health, to boo topics, which not a lot of people are comfortable doing. I'm not quite there yet, because I feel like I need to finish my training and be a fully fledged consultant, obstetrician, gynecologist. But as soon as I've done that, I'm going to be very open and hopefully get involved in a lot of policy change and
and advocacy stuff to get women talking and feeling that their bodies are remarkable.
Jen (49:46.254)
I love it. Thank you for spending time with me and for everyone who's listening today. I've loved chatting with you in person and I know that they're gonna love having the conversation. I'm so excited to have someone that's gone through elite, elite exercise and being an elite athlete to now come full circle into women's health and to be such a open advocate for change. It's really, really exciting from my perspective. Thank you.
Jana (50:09.588)
Thank you.
Cool, done.
Jen (50:17.034)
Alright.
