Jen Dugard (00:01.132)
Mish, welcome to the Mum's Safe Pro podcast. How are you going?
Mish (00:05.412)
I am going really well, Jen. I'm actually a little hot under the collar because I'm in Phuket. And I went from single figures of temperature in Melbourne to, I don't know, the humidities in the 70s or something insane. but I can't really complain. All is good.
Jen Dugard (00:27.872)
No. Yeah, nice. Mish, we always start the podcast with our guests. You've been here before, so you know this. A word to share how you're showing up today.
Mish (00:41.05)
Scented.
Jen Dugard (00:42.21)
I like that. And I like the fact that you didn't think about it for too long. And we also hadn't prepped it. So it's like, yeah, we didn't prep it. And that's, I feel like that's the way the word is supposed to be. And people are like, I didn't think about it. It's like, you're not supposed to think about it. Just, just how, how are you going?
Mish (00:47.48)
We didn't.
Mish (00:56.085)
Yeah, it's part of my practice is to keep centered no matter what is happening, just breathe and feel into right now without any expectations of what's going to come or what's been before. So yeah, centered.
Jen Dugard (01:06.158)
Mmm.
Jen Dugard (01:17.482)
Easier said than done. I like it. It's definitely a practice. A practice. Mish, what are you winning out at the moment?
Mish (01:21.328)
It's a practice, definitely a practice, not a perfect, it's a practice.
Mish (01:29.658)
What am I winning at? Well, I have to say that I'm winning at content creation. I've been so busy working with creating my new course Menopause Training Matrix. I've updated my training, Perimenopause and Menopause are Women, course that's to thousands of fitness professionals worldwide with fitness education.
That hadn't really been touched for a few years and the space is moving super quickly So I finished that and I'm about to start on a new project a women's health 101 course and all of this you know when people see the end product of the of the course or the piece of or the video that's in front of them or the notes it's it's kind of that's the piece of the
iceberg that's sticking out from, you know, the water. The bulk of the work comes from me being at reading, reading, reading, listening, engaging, and then thinking, and then thinking about my audience, fitness professional. How can this book or this research or this person's knowledge, how can that be translated? you know, it takes all my skills as a teacher to
think about the flow and the pace and points I want to cover and how can I get people to remember so much. Yeah, so I've finished two big projects and I'm about to start my third. So yeah, winning at that content creation.
Jen Dugard (03:19.201)
I think you just covered winning and working on in the same conversation there. You're you're winning. When you first said content creation, I thought you meant all your social media. And then I realized you mean your educational content, the actual courses and what you deliver. It's interesting. I've been...
Mish (03:32.26)
Yes.
Jen Dugard (03:37.09)
This week we've got, I've been updating safe return to exercise for this exact same reason. There's so much, I'm gonna say there's so much new research that tells us we don't know fuck all really. So how do you take the new research that tells us we don't know enough and put it with the old research that told us that we didn't know enough and come out with a formula that exercise professionals can actually use rather than just sitting in the middle and going, we don't know anything. Cause we do know a lot and the more you dig.
Mish (04:04.345)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (04:06.542)
The more you dig, the more you kind of just go, it's really not black and white. And anyone that's out there telling you it's one way or the other way is not embracing the nuance of the pre and postnatal space or the perimenopause or the menopause space. So I think that's where the work that we do is so beautifully challenging.
Mish (04:27.46)
Yeah, yeah, but even though you're right, Jen, that every time you learn more, you realize, my God, this is so much and there's so many gray areas. It's not as simple as black and white. I always think about the trainer and the person on the other end of the video. Like every time I create a video and I look in the camera, I am speaking to what I call them Jack.
is 18 years. So here actually I have a lot of men who do my do my courses. I obviously have a lot of women who do my courses, but you know, Jack is fresh out of PT school and gung-ho and wants to learn. And so I think about him now if I can make enough of the basics stick with him. I feel like
Jen Dugard (04:57.047)
it's a he!
Jen Dugard (05:01.955)
Mm-hmm.
Mish (05:23.248)
my job is done because really that is my specialty. I'm able to give a 101, you know, that entry level. Now, obviously a lot of people who buy my courses are not Jack. They're often middle-aged women who have been in the industry for a number of years. But what I find with them is the stuff that they already know, it reiterates for them and they feel
confident that they're on the right track. And with any sort of knowledge, know, the pedagogical sense, if you're wanting people to retain more, you have to give them the tree and then you're like another branch or another leaf on that tree. And so, you know, I often think about that analogy. So it kind of covers off the Jack. But then Jackie, who is my other
student avatar, she watches it and goes, yeah, I know that I feel really good that I'm that I already know so much. And then, you know, the extension is from there. But it is all about finding all the things that seem confusing gray area, there will be a common denominator where we want people to know a basis. And so I try to look for that, and then teach it and use all my teaching skills.
touch points of how can I make it memorable, relatable, because you can have the best message in the world, you can have the best research in the world, but if you can't communicate it in a way in which people can retain it and then have it in their back pocket for when they need to use it, then it's useless. And I'm sure you've seen this too, and I often talk about this is that presenters see their
the people that they are talking to or the educators, their learner, it's like an empty cup and they feel like they need to give them value for money by like stuffing everything into this cup so that they have everything. But in reality, the cup overflows and they go away feeling overwhelmed. So instead I have a theory like, I'm gonna teach you three things.
Mish (07:40.154)
and you're going to be able to remember them because you can remember three things and I'm going to attach them onto something that possibly you already know. And then here's the implications because at the end of day, I want it to change when a woman comes to the gym or turns up as a new client or an existing client that that training goes, okay, I've learned something. I want to put it into there rather than them having a certificate with, you know, CCs or PDB points on their wall.
Jen Dugard (08:06.766)
It was, it was, and it's like, think that getting that foundational knowledge in place is one of the most important things that we can do. And then of course, when Jack has learned his knowledge, Jack might just continue on with what he's doing, but Jackie, and I've very much genderized there, if that's a word, Jackie might go, cool, I've got this foundational knowledge now.
Mish (08:09.85)
That was a big, answer for the question.
Jen Dugard (08:33.942)
what's next, what can I learn next, how can I dig deeper? While she's passing on that foundational knowledge to her clients, then she's going off and because she's passing it on, she's consolidating it and learning it more because we all know that when we teach what we have learned, we retain and we're able to build on that knowledge. Absolutely. Yeah. I always love.
Mish (08:46.022)
Yes.
Mish (08:52.516)
becomes part of us. Yeah, yeah.
Jen Dugard (08:56.918)
love the messages I get from people after doing safe pretend exercise. It's like I learned that yesterday and I implemented it today. And that's exactly what we want people to do with our education, right?
Mish (09:03.535)
Yeah.
Mish (09:07.31)
Yeah, absolutely. I still get messages today from women that I taught when I was a fitness professional saying, I've just started a new such and such group and I still, you know, 15, 20 years later, have your words in my head so I know how to navigate it. And I'm looking at all the women who don't know this information and I, you know, I'm feeling sorry for them. I've had that.
message quite a few times. then just, I was on the way home from the airport with you, Jen, and I got a message from one of our students at Women's Fitness Education, who had an experience where she had a coughing fit and it pushed her to prolapse. And she wrote to me to say, I would have had no idea what was going on with my body, except I'm doing your course right now.
And I was so empowered to go and do the right thing and ask the right questions. you know, it's just, I can't imagine where I'd be if I didn't have that. that is, yeah, that's the joy of being an educator is impacting on people's lives and making a difference, making a difference in the industry.
Jen Dugard (10:19.33)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (10:27.904)
Absolutely, and I think we never quite know how far that reach goes, do we? Because it's like you pass it on and then you pass on. So when you do get those messages, it's really nice to kind of, not nice that that happened to her, but nice that she was empowered with education to have the autonomy to then go and look after herself.
Mish (10:41.261)
up.
Mish (10:44.792)
Yeah, and not only that, but that ripple effect of now she is really inspired to make sure that every woman that she works with in the fitness industry, you know, as a going forward, as when she graduates and becomes a trainer, she is super passionate about making sure that they are okay. And especially, you know, I've been banging on about pelvic health for, you know, so long that
Jen Dugard (10:47.63)
Hmm.
Mish (11:11.792)
It's still something that's fundamentally overlooked everywhere, but it's just such a game changer for women trying to navigate exercise when it causes them to leak or causes them to have pelvic pain or causes their prolapse symptoms to be worse when it doesn't need to be.
Jen Dugard (11:36.864)
Absolutely. Hamish, you've been working on obviously something new and you talked about it right at the beginning. It's a relatively new course called the menopause training matrix. Tell us, I mean you've quite beautifully moved. I know that you still do some pelvic health, potentially pre and postnatal education, but you have moved in the last couple of years or few years from that space more into the perimenopause and menopause space. Let's start with the first question.
Why did you move? Why didn't you just stay there with the new mom?
Mish (12:11.12)
Well, I think to be a good teacher, you have to be an excellent learner. And so, you know, I'm fascinated about all areas of women's health, actually, I wouldn't say that I, you know, I've got one area, even I'm kind of growing into this menopause space and people see me there. But I feel equally as passionate about
all the other spaces of women's health. But yeah, I I wrote my first, I remember writing a blog when I was probably 10 years ago saying I'm perimenopause. And it just wasn't a word. You know, I think I wrote something like perimenopause sounds like the word you would give to the ship that sticks to the bottom of your shoe.
That's the kind of, that's how I felt about that word. was just, you know, and so, but now it's just so exciting. Perimenopause is we've got women who are like, what I'm not going to not talk about. I'm really actively wanting knowledge and I want to change it. And I think that's off the back actually of the work that you've done, Jen, and I've done in that, pre postnatal space with really empowered women in that.
postnatal space particularly to advocate for their own health. And so they're seasoned warriors. So now they're all moving into perimenopause and they're like, yeah, I'm not doing the bullshit that my mother did of like, you know, talking about it in hush terms. You know, I want to know for my own self and I want to advocate for other women. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (14:06.635)
Mm.
Mish (14:07.852)
So yeah, I've kind of grown into the menopause space and also I suppose, you know, it's lived experience, right? So, you know, it was lived experience as to why I went into pelvic floor. It was lived experience why I worked with postnatal mums. It's lived experience, but I try very much not to make it about me or my symptoms or my menopause experience because all of these things are so individual to the person.
to the human in front of you.
Jen Dugard (14:40.128)
Absolutely, absolutely agree. Mish, tell us a little bit about your, I've got your website up at the moment, your running your menopause training matrix workshop. And what are the, there's some key topics that you go in, in that specific workshop. And obviously there's more to learn, more to learn afterwards, but tell us if, tell us about what's in there and why you chose to put those specific pillars into that workshop.
Mish (14:51.407)
Yes.
Mish (14:55.023)
Yeah.
Mish (15:07.758)
Yeah. So, like I said, I've had the training perimenopausal menopausal women. It's been around since, for about seven or eight years now. So it was one of the first out there. It's sold in five or six different countries with professional development points. So, you know, thousands of people are doing this education yet. and excuse the term, but I.
I totally call myself a gym slut. So, you know, I, where I am now, I'll join the gym. You know, if I go somewhere for the weekend, I take an offer up on their website of, you know, go to as many classes as you want for 50 bucks or whatever. I'm there. doing it. So I'm, I'm kind of incognito being a secret shopper and nothing has fucking changed. I'm obviously an older woman.
I've got white hair and wrinkles and glasses and yet there is no questions. So this really bugged me and I wanted the information to be separate from the online course, which is very theory based and I wanted it practical and it took me a long time to get to this point of how am I going to do it.
It required a lot of thinking, a lot of walking, a lot of, you know, game planning. But what I've done, the menopause training matrix, I think the beauty and the simplicity of it is so everyone wants to know how to train midlife women, right? What do I do? And so the general narrative is lift heavy shit, which is just problematic. And it's another whole conversation why that's problematic.
but it still doesn't help the trainer know exactly what to do. Cause I probably already, let's face it, have some kind of weight training program that they're prescribing anyway. So what difference is it going to make? So I did have a lead magnet on my website that was what I call the pericurious symptom checklist. And it's got something like 64 different symptoms that are in alphabetical order. And the whole idea is because
Mish (17:31.396)
to determine that you are in perimenopause is about your symptoms. And so you need to have like a checklist, you need to sit with that checklist for a couple of weeks. Is this a one-off symptom? You need to gather that data. So I created that and then I thought what would be really good is if they were grouped into, and this is what I've done, I've grouped them into five.
symptom types. Obviously not all of the symptom types fit neatly into there. So I've another category of like random shit you wouldn't even know about. but you know, so the menopause training matrix provides a tool to give your clients for them to assess themselves and their symptoms. Now that's really important because if they go to a menopause.com
and want to look at menopause hormone therapy, they're going to be asked about their symptoms. And if you just rock up, like, you know, you might remember that something, but you're not going to know, you're not going to be able to give all the right data. sitting with that is really great self advocacy for your own health, but then it gives a clear
opportunity for a trainer to say, okay, so your main symptoms are, for example, vasomotor, so hot flushes, vasomotor is a fancy word for hot flushes, or, you know, night sweats or not sleeping. Well, you know, that has got a different application for training than, you know, so if you've got, you know, weak bones or, you know, musculoskeletal issues of menopause as well. So,
So having a plan determined by the symptoms. And I think also what that does is it puts extra emphasis on the fact that you have to be aware of your own symptoms in order to get any sort of support, whether it's medical or going to the gym and working with your trainer. So the menopause training matrix is a very, very practical
Mish (19:51.234)
application and I think offers the opportunity for trainers to have more of a coaching outlook. So yes, it will help them plan their session with their client, but then have all the kind of extra add-ons that they can put into their business to
charge more to if they want to put themselves up as an expert in this space. Nothing screams expert when you've actually got a system in place and the documentation. So yeah, I've prepped all that. I've been really fortunate, Jen, that you came along to my menopause training matrix and you got to see it in action.
Jen Dugard (20:39.383)
I did.
Mish (20:44.142)
you know, explore what it looks like. So it is, it is very practical.
Jen Dugard (20:49.326)
It is. How, if I'm a trainer training women, what kind of signs and symptoms am I trying to listen to them telling me about to start to recognise that they might be in perimenopause?
Mish (21:02.896)
Well, it's an interesting question. And I'll just put some context around it. So in Australia, white women will go through menopause, so when they are one year free of periods at age 52. We haven't got the data for our Indigenous women. However, the research is quite clear in other Indigenous cultures and with
women of color that age is more like 48, 49. So there's a difference there. Now perimenopause symptoms can happen 10 years before that. So then you're looking at an age range of late thirties to early forties when women are getting, you know, starting to experience in the first, there's also a sliding scale of symptoms. So the hot sweats that, you know, kind of
grab all the limelight, they are missing periods, or you know, your periods being really heavy and crazy. That's more down the, this, the, what the close to the end where you're going to stop menstruating for, for your year and then one year, one day, and you're going to be postmenopause. but the symptoms that are at the beginning are much more subtle and they are more cognitive. So they are your
you know, your brain fog, you know, just losing a sense of you that could be interpreted as anxiety or depression, but it might not be. Okay, it might be, but it also might not be. So I've kind of forgotten your question, Jen. I've talked all around it.
Jen Dugard (22:50.99)
No, this is perfect. It's the I asked what site. So if your trainers in the gym and they've got women over 30, over 35, like what, and people are saying things like, just, what are the things that they're saying for us as trainers to recognize that that's where they might be in their life stage and therefore we might introduce a checklist or we might introduce recommendations to see other practitioners. So just really drilling into those things for us to listen out for. Yeah.
Mish (23:16.566)
Yeah, yeah. And it can be really hard. talk about this in the workshop and we actually role play how to have that conversation because, you know, suggesting to someone they might be in perimenopause is akin to saying to them, I think you're old. Because menopause is something that is associated with older women.
And so the response might be, I've got an perimenopause, I'm only 42, like not 52.
Jen Dugard (23:49.806)
I don't even know if it's that though, Mish. I mean, yes, I definitely think there's an element of that. The other element for me is just like, don't give me a fucking excuse. And it's this really interesting programming that we have in the fitness industry. And I would say that potentially other trainers that are in the fitness industry might have, which might make it harder again for them to potentially talk about it. It's like, yeah, it's when somebody asked me about, I think I was,
emotional, whatever, whether it's got to do with perimenopause or menopause, I don't know. It's not ongoing. I've had depression in the past. But I was just like, don't fucking like give that to me and make that my reason. And it was, that was a really, so you could get that response as well as you're getting older. It's like someone saying to you, you're cranky because you got your period. It's like, fuck off. Like, and maybe I am, but.
Mish (24:37.471)
Yeah, yeah, so.
Fuck off.
It doesn't matter. you know, so having a tool where you can say, also as part of the matrix, I've created a whole lot of what I call prep for Perry. And these are information sheets that, that trainers can give their clients. So around all aspects.
Jen Dugard (24:47.448)
need you to just like write me off because of that. It's a very weird space isn't it?
Mish (25:10.877)
of, you know, so they could email them or have it as a,
Jen Dugard (25:15.456)
what's in that mish, like what kind of stuff is in, like what's in for some of the, give me some of the top three pieces of information that you could prep for Perry with.
Mish (25:22.704)
So the prep for PERI is, I've got one on pelvic health changes, lifestyle considerations, why sleep and rest is so important, those kinds of things picking up on, and one about metabolism, changes in metabolism and body shape.
Though a client might be saying to you, you know, I'm doing everything the same and yet I've just got an extra roll of fat and it's around my tummy. What the fuck? How did that get there? And you know, what am I doing wrong? And so, you know, it's, it can be really difficult. You've been to, you've done your online course or you've been to a workshop or something and you're like, I've got to explain this in layman's terms to someone as to why that happens.
you know, it might be easy to say, do you know what, I've got an information sheet that the information is valid. And then they can read that and it just makes that conversation a bit easier. So yeah, I kind of think about all my work like that is what are the tools and resources can I give the trainer to just make it easier and minimize the information where they kind of
this is what I heard, this is what I think happens because, you know, I I live and breathe this stuff. I'm reading and writing every day about women's health. It sticks with me, you know, other people, you know, this is one of many things that they're looking out for when they have their human that's in front of them.
Jen Dugard (26:53.56)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (27:08.972)
Yeah, and especially if you're not someone that is only working with a certain demographic, like I know that we talk a lot about, you know, find your niche and work with that person. And there's plenty of trainers that do, and they really drill down into that knowledge. the depth of their knowledge is big, the breadth of their knowledge might be smaller, or they might just have, you know, little bits of knowledge from other places. And then there's other trainers that really do work with a lot of general population. And we need to make sure that we've got.
Mish (27:13.786)
Hmm
Mish (27:32.568)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Jen Dugard (27:35.426)
They've got information at hand that's easy and that they can pass on to their clients. Mish, if I... go on.
Mish (27:42.788)
Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, in particular, I just want to point out that every single person with ovaries will go through menopause. that's huge, where postnatal, you might train women who have never had children.
Jen Dugard (28:04.43)
77 % of the female population will be mums, so still quite a big.
Mish (28:08.88)
There's, it absolutely, absolutely is huge, but 100 % of people with ovaries will go through menopause. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (28:15.33)
Yeah.
Yeah, I get, yeah, I totally get it. And then we also enter that conversation, don't we, of that 77 % out of the 100 % that we'll go through, menopause, those that have had a baby, if they've not had good guidance in pregnancy and postpartum pelvic health, then it makes the down the track.
Mish (28:32.237)
and
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (28:37.186)
harder. So it's really important. And I see this out in the marketplace at the moment. It's like all of the conversations, perimenopause and menopause, it's like awesome. It's so needed and it's so important. It doesn't mean that just because it's only 77 % of the female population are going to be moms that we don't need to deal with that because the ongoing effect of that for these 100 % of women that are going through menopause is going to be harder if they've not had that care throughout their whole life.
Mish (29:03.828)
Yeah, yeah. And I just want to pick up on that point too, and the fact that if you have had some sort of pelvic floor dysfunction, birth trauma or birth injury, know, generally this improves over time.
And I'm talking about you've had that as a postnatal experience, part of the birth experience or early postnatal experience. Symptoms improve over time, especially going to see a pelvic health physiotherapist. But what the research is really clear about, and not so much in the birth injuries, but anecdotally, Birth Trauma Australia is seeing this, is that women,
have these injuries, have this trauma, have this pelvic floor dysfunction, it slowly gets better. They hit perimenopause and it goes to shit. so, you know, for women thinking, well, it's kind of, I'm over that and it's all good, you know, are at risk. And so we need trainers who, you know, they might've seen the postnatal as that early part.
Jen Dugard (30:03.928)
Thank you.
Mish (30:21.732)
but to be training moms like moms for the rest of their life. Yeah. And this is just brings up the importance, reiterates the importance of that when they go through perimenopause, when that loss of estrogen affects the elasticity of ligaments and muscles and fascia. You know, it's not just the wrinkles that sag on the outside. It's all what...
Jen Dugard (30:23.79)
All the way through. Absolutely.
Mish (30:47.308)
that sagging happens on the inside as well. we need to coach our clients being pelvic floor aware or understanding even if they are not currently right now showing symptoms or their symptoms have drastically improved to like they have none. The prolapse statistic that the Continence Foundation of Australia puts out that
just over 50 % of postnatal women will experience prolapse. Most of those happen during perimenopausal time. So yeah, it's something that we can't lose sight of.
Jen Dugard (31:27.68)
Absolutely, and then of course you get the cohort of women that have never had any support. So at least the ones, I, you know, at least it's shit language, but at least the ones that have had support have done some rebuilding, and then you've got the ones that have never had support, have never done any rebuilding, then they get this messaging as they're getting older of you need to strength train, and then we've just got this shit show that we started this whole conversation with. Lift heavy stuff, don't worry about your pelvic floor, doesn't matter that we've not checked in with that.
Mish (31:46.296)
Yes. Yeah, left-handed shit. my god. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (31:56.884)
It's fascinating along the whole.
Mish (31:58.35)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yes, all women should be strength training, but we get so hung up on the dantic about the intricacies when, you know, we're talking about progressive overload and that can look very different from someone who's had very little exposure to being fit to
to someone who loves the weights room at the gym. But I keep going back, circling back in my mind, is that the biggest risk for women in their 40s is they don't exercise at all. So if we're giving this message that they have to lift heavy shit and they look at those reels on Instagram of women with big barbells and...
and like, my God, I'm supposed to do that, but I don't even like doing that. You know, that's no good either. We need to be much more inclusive about what progressive overload looks like. And definitely like what you said before, in terms of we can't throw the baby up with a bath water and forget about pelvic health as well during that.
Jen Dugard (33:19.278)
I really like that Mish. I think that the more experienced I've become in this space, the less of a, let's call it a gym snob I've become. Like I was definitely like, this is what I do. You do that. think body pump's stupid. I think this is stupid. I couldn't imagine being in a spin class and now it's like, sweet. You love doing that, go do it. Because exactly like you just said.
the main problem that we have, if we just throw all of this women's health, pelvic health, menopause, you know, all of this stuff out of, out, could take it off the table. The reality is, is that not enough women or men are moving their body. So if people are doing anything at all, fundamentally, and this is where I get really challenged as well with the, you know, we're teaching people education and we're saying, you know, you need to be educated when you're training older women or pre and postnatal women and.
Mish (33:54.903)
Yes, exactly. Yay.
Jen Dugard (34:09.527)
Does that just put up another barrier to people moving their body because now they're looking for the right person? Even though I wholeheartedly believe in that, and I believe that they should look for the right person. Are we creating another barrier to entry by saying everyone should be trained in the demographic that they're working with? Why isn't it okay to have absolutely no regulation at all? We can go into that conversation if we want to and just say the person cheerleading, they're great. They got that person off the couch. That is all that we need to do.
Mish (34:16.182)
Hmm.
Mmm.
Mish (34:38.233)
Yeah, yeah.
Jen Dugard (34:40.652)
And I say that knowing that that's not what my heart believes, but that is one of my biggest challenges to work through.
Mish (34:43.949)
Yeah.
Mish (34:47.45)
I suppose we can see it as concentric circles. First of all, get people moving. And then, you know, let's take away the fear around, you know, exercise or, you know, and also if women are going into exercise for the first time, particularly strength training during this perimenopausal time, we also know that the loss of estrogen takes away the anti-inflamm.
you know, the protective qualities around our joints and our recovery. So they're going to be in much more pain. And, know, I know, I've heard you talk about this, I've talked about this, we can't train women, you know, so hard that they can't get up off the toilet seat kind of thing without...
Jen Dugard (35:36.738)
But is that better than them sitting on the couch and not getting up at all? I don't know, Mish. Again, like I'm reinforcing the fact that this is completely opposite to everything that I believe and I see the merit in just fucking moving your body.
Mish (35:42.09)
You
Mish (35:51.374)
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. So one thing that my latest project that I've been working on is a protocol for training midlife women. And this is a protocol is a bit different from the menopause training matrix, the menopause training matrix that has the, you know, the nuts and bolts, everything that you need to work across the board with midlife women. But a protocol is much general. Like we have a protocol
of what the government says that you need to move 150 minutes per week and two of those need to be strength training. But that is about as boring as a cold plate of oatmeal.
Jen Dugard (36:39.022)
It depends what you're doing.
Mish (36:41.39)
Yeah, but it's not on the top of everyone's lips where I've created a protocol called Grace that is designed for midlife women. I can go into all of it, but G is the grit and the story around that is, know, midlife women already have grit. They've already experienced hard and tough times. That's right.
Jen Dugard (37:08.226)
They didn't get there without it, did they?
Mish (37:10.884)
That's right. you know, that, they're going to call it, you know, they're going to spot BS, you know, 10 feet away. so for, for women who are new to exercise that grip might be like, okay, well you've already experienced stress and you know that that has made you stronger. need to do that same thing for your muscles and your bones. So, you know, puts it into that, but if your clients already come to see you, they already understand that grip or.
Jen Dugard (37:17.623)
Yeah.
Mish (37:39.706)
progressive overload is important. It's already part of what they do. But R is regulate. understanding how to down regulate the nervous system. is for accumulate. And this is just touching on your point. It's not just about accumulating time. So yesterday I was traveling from Singapore to here. No time to do a proper workout, but I was able to accumulate little bits of activity throughout the day to kind of
get it in. So, but it accumulates not just time, but it's also about options. So, you know, going back to what you enjoyed when you were a girl, you know, so yes, you're going to the gym, fabulous. Okay, can you get on your bike? Can you go swimming? Can you do some other things? So accumulate what I call, it's what I call cross training. You know, it
Jen Dugard (38:37.048)
Mm.
Mish (38:38.764)
It doesn't have to be C is cardio, cardio is getting a bad rap in the midlife space. And I can tell you right now, cardio is not canceled. women are dying from heart disease and major killer of women in 2026. Alzheimer's is set to overtake, heart disease, but even so the research is really clear that cardiovascular is fabulous for your brain. and then E is endurance and.
endurance is about, obviously, you know, pushing yourself longer, you know, is the traditional sense of endurance. But I also like to think of endurance as taking up time and space for yourself. You know, that's what needs to happen for midlife women. They have had decades of caring for other people and
and they need to start pulling back or prioritizing themselves. So I like to think of as endurance as telling the family, do you know what, on Saturday, I'm doing a two hour walk or I'm going on and that's my time, you know, and owning that space. So that's my grace protocol.
Jen Dugard (39:50.062)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (39:57.47)
I like it, I like it, I like the letters and you can remember what they are and it means something. I picked up on the last one and it's, so many more women now in that midlife stage with little children. So buying back that time and saying, hey, mom's gonna go do the thing. Like I feel like I'm lucky where I'm at. Like my kids, I had my kids a bit younger than a lot of people have done over the last few years and I'm kind of coming out that side when I'm going, I need me time and they're.
Mish (40:14.084)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (40:25.102)
kind of okay, whereas there's a lot of my friends of the same age as me that have got little people that you can't just, I mean, you can't but you can because you need to ask for support. So permission to ask for that time.
Mish (40:27.034)
Yeah.
Mish (40:31.439)
Yeah.
Mish (40:35.918)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we have to acknowledge it. We have to acknowledge that this needs to happen. Okay, and that's where the coaching comes in, where you can brainstorm with your client around the, because you've seen it as well, I've created a whole teaching framework that goes with supporting on how to ask, to listen.
Jen Dugard (40:40.291)
Yeah.
Mish (41:00.878)
how to prioritize one thing and support your client in getting there. So that's where the value add, you're not just providing an exercise program and supporting them with that. If you can do that other stuff around their life, you step into coaching territory and your client doesn't leave you. Anyone can provide a fitness program really, but
Jen Dugard (41:24.706)
Mm. Mm.
Mish (41:29.924)
people get really passionate about keeping their trainer when they are like the go-to person to just support them, you know, in all aspects. And so that taking time for yourself. Obviously, first of all, trainers, know mostly trainers are listening to this, you need to model it. So you need to be taking time for yourself.
amount of time. So I always ask in the in the workshop, you know, what have you done for self care and they are so busy, not only organizing their family, but also all their clients that, know, you need to you need to live this stuff. You need to take up space, you need to take time for yourself as well. So you can model it to your trainer and support them to their client, sorry.
Jen Dugard (42:18.944)
Yep, absolutely. Hey, Mish, I'm aware of getting you back to whatever leisurely activities you're doing over there in Thailand. Before we start to wrap up, do want to share with us you're doing some workshops throughout the rest of 2025? Tell me where you will be going and yeah, when? I'm like, I'm trying to look around for my date. So September, Sydney.
Mish (42:27.607)
Thank
Mish (42:39.408)
You're going to ask me for the dates, aren't you? Okay. yes, September, Sydney, but first of all, August in Melbourne, and that's Friday the 15th. I've got this beautiful venue in Parkville that has, you can open the windows and it looks out onto the park. So you'll start to see.
kind of the appetite that know, Facebook will come out. So 15th of August in Melbourne in Sydney on Wednesday, third of September. I'm excited by this one because I'm teaming up with Jen. We are, she's going to be doing her VIP workshop and I'll do mine. there's, know, it's gonna be a whole day of,
Jen Dugard (43:15.05)
I think it's the third. Yeah, we're both doing something. Yeah.
Mish (43:34.212)
the Jen Mish goodness show for those people in Sydney. I'm coming back to Sydney in December and I'm also doing Perth and Auckland. And I'm gonna try and fit in Adelaide somewhere. So if you're listening from this and you're in Adelaide, I've had this lovely email from someone saying to me, why have you forgotten Adelaide? And so,
Jen Dugard (43:45.046)
Auckland.
Jen Dugard (43:50.807)
Hmm.
Mish (44:00.464)
If you're in Adelaide and this is talking to you, flick me a message because you know, if there's enough people, I will run it. Yeah. So I think I've got five coming up. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (44:09.698)
Nice. Beautiful. Very, very exciting. I will make sure that the link to that goes in the show notes so anyone can find you, but if they're looking for you on Instagram just to find the things, it's just, it's at Mishfit.
Mish (44:22.658)
It is at Mishfit, but I have to tell you, Jen, I'm pretty rubbish at social media and I completely own it. And that is because, you know, I could spend a lot of time and effort and energy being on there. And then the algorithms might not even serve it up to the people who I want. And I know it's a, you got to keep doing it, but it just shits me all of that. So, you know, for the last couple of years, I,
Jen Dugard (44:28.622)
Okay.
Mish (44:49.25)
I have been writing twice a week to my database. And so I feel like when I write, the people can have access to it. It's not just whether the algorithm serves it up. And I have to say, people do.
Jen Dugard (44:50.766)
Mmm, that's right.
Mish (45:11.6)
read it and get back to me. When we were at dinner on Saturday night, I had a woman on each side of me, didn't know who they were, they didn't know each other and they both said to me, you are in my inbox, I read you every single week and it just so good. So you can sign up on my website, which is mishright.com, M-I-S-H-W-R-I-G-H.com. You have to kind of wait a few seconds and then this gold bar swings in the top. I don't know why it doesn't come in right away. Anyway,
Jen Dugard (45:23.064)
So good.
Mish (45:41.326)
And it'll say Friday Musings and Monday Muse. Friday Musings are stories. And then Monday Muse are things that I'm listening to, I want to promote. It just means that my Friday doesn't have to have any promotion. It can just share what I want to say. I could paint, you know, if everyone saw my stuff on Instagram, I would do more there. But if you really want to know what I'm doing, what I'm reading,
Jen Dugard (45:56.995)
Mm.
Mish (46:10.308)
what I'm thinking about, what I'm doing next. Please join up to my newsletter. I don't take your email address lightly. I honor it.
Jen Dugard (46:22.478)
Beautiful, thanks Mish. Have a beautiful day, it is Friday. I hope you're gonna be, I don't know, relaxing for the rest of this day where you are in Thailand. I've got a few more hours to do updating safe return to exercise and then I'll have my head in relaxation mode over the weekend as well. But Mish, thank you so much for joining us, me today. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and I know that this won't be the last time.
Mish (46:33.604)
We can't.
Mish (46:48.356)
Thank you, thank you, Jen. And yeah, so easy for us to chat and hang out. Thank you.
Jen Dugard (46:55.554)
Take care.
