Jen Dugard (00:00.684)
Hello, welcome to the podcast.
Louise (00:02.557)
Thank you, it's very exciting. I'm good, I'm really good today.
Jen Dugard (00:05.048)
How are you?
Okay, cool. I was interested in people's response to that question. Is it just the auto response or is it the hmmm, how am I today?
Louise (00:16.819)
Let me know. No, really good today. It's, it's Friday. I love Fridays. Just I don't know. I think it's because it's that afternoon or it's like, yes, I am actually going to switch off. I feel like midweek. I always feel like I should be working on something. If it's not the kids dinner, then I should be at the gym. If I'm not at the gym, I should be working on my business. If I'm not working on my business, like it just goes around in circles. Whereas Friday afternoon, I feel like I give myself permission to like,
Jen Dugard (00:22.872)
Why do you love Fridays?
Louise (00:46.107)
No, it's fine. It's probably after I switch off.
Jen Dugard (00:47.074)
Yeah, it's interesting because the word I picked up on them was should and I think as women we live our lives by or as people we live our lives by this should.
Louise (00:54.737)
Yep. Yep. Yep. And especially moms, like there's always something you feel like you should be doing something. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (01:02.786)
Yep, so right, so right. Hey Lou, we do this a lot, but share with me a win, no, a word to start with, and then a win and then something that you're working on.
Louise (01:12.049)
Yeah, my word is relaxed. I was trying to think of why am I so relaxed? I was like, I think it's because my husband's gone away for the week. But not because I don't want him around, but because how easy is life sometimes when you know you are the sole parent, where there's like, I don't have to go to the gym because I can't because I have to be here for the kids. Therefore schedule is out the window. I'm like, it's so nice, like parenting, just parenting.
Jen Dugard (01:14.7)
Hmm.
Louise (01:41.563)
I saw once there was, it was a meme or something probably on Instagram that said, parenting on its own is not hard. Parenting whilst doing all the other shit, that's when it's hard. like, yes! I'm relaxed because this weekend I'm just parenting.
Jen Dugard (01:50.926)
It's so true. It's so true.
Jen Dugard (01:56.344)
Just parenting. Yeah, I think the other thing about the partner, and I say this with love, and then being there or not being there, it's like, I can do anything as long as I know I have to do everything. But when, let's say, because Ben goes away quite a bit for work, and then it's...
It's fine when he's away. The kids are a little bit older. We manage things. I can go to the gym because I can leave them, so it's not so bad. But I just know that it's me, myself, and I, and I've got to do all the things. So I've got my schedule and I do it. Then Ben comes back, which is amazing, because obviously you wanted to come back. But with that, then comes this thought that maybe things will be easier and somebody else might do something, which in theory they do and he does a lot. But it's not on my agenda anymore and it's not on my timeframe.
I find it really hard to kind of go now, well, you didn't do that when it needed to be done and now I need to do that but I'm on the back foot because I didn't plan that it needed to be done beforehand and it's actually more of a shit show.
Louise (02:56.027)
It's kind of like someone else's schedule is now in the mix and that's sometimes really stressful.
Jen Dugard (03:00.002)
Yeah, or their priorities because, and then I reflect on that going there and then I think, well, it's just, you'd need to communicate better, which is probably what we need to do. life lessons, life lessons. That was your word.
Louise (03:11.431)
This is how you do Finally.
my word relax my win is some strong moms merch so you know as well as body resilient mom project my business is strong moms so we're doing some t-shirts and i've gone from just branding like with the strong moms logo to some kind of funky some funny t-shirts so that's quite exciting yeah but i would no even the strong moms don't know
Jen Dugard (03:34.208)
awesome. you gonna like do you know what have you can you share what you've put on them or? It's secret. when are they arriving?
Louise (03:46.375)
when I order them. But they're designed and they're ready. So it's like, okay, so we get the orders in. There's a few to choose from. So yeah, I haven't picked them yet, but I've got the designs and then people can pick them like, I like them. Follow me on social media if you're interested.
Jen Dugard (03:51.288)
So they didn't pick their design.
Okay.
Jen Dugard (04:00.94)
That's exciting. That's cool. Very cool.
I wanna see them now, absolutely. Everyone's heading over to the Strong Mums, Strong Mums Gosford Instagram. And what are you working on apart from your t-shirt designs?
Louise (04:13.971)
.
I'm working on a moment. Yeah, that's the fun stuff, isn't it, of business. Some resources for the Body Resilient Mon project. So these are gonna be free resources for trainers to help support them in help and supporting their clients with their client's body image. That was really worthy. So yeah, free resources for trainers to help them feel more confident and more able to help their clients with their client's body image.
Jen Dugard (04:33.686)
Yeah, okay.
Jen Dugard (04:43.286)
Amazing. Okay, so I guess that really beautifully segues into, tell us a little about who you are, your background, strong moms, and then where does Body Resilient Mom Project come into it?
Louise (04:57.425)
Hmm. where do we start? my background is, I mean, I feel like if anyone's listened to your podcast more than once, Jen, they're like, it's her again. My background is psychology. I did psychology at uni and then did a masters at uni in psychology and then went into what would be an 11 year career in clinical and research. So kind of worked a bit in a brain injury rehabilitation unit and then went on to academia and so kind of like
Jen Dugard (05:07.618)
Not at all.
Louise (05:26.695)
done a lot of stuff within psychology. Moved over here to Australia, started working at St Vincent's in Sydney for the, there was a mental health project, absolutely loved it. Had a baby, went off on maternity leave, came back and of course like everything changes. And it's not that I didn't like, I didn't like the job anymore, but your priorities just get turned upside down. And so.
It wasn't my passion anymore and I just wanted more flexibility, working and life. Cause you know, I dropped Millie off when she was about 10 months old at daycare and she absolutely hated it. She was crying when I dropped her off. She'd still be crying. I'm sure she stopped at some point, but she was crying when I picked her up. Yeah, is. And was expensive. Like I was left with like a hundred dollars at the end of the week after forking out for someone else to look after my baby.
Jen Dugard (06:11.95)
It's isn't it? It's so hard.
Louise (06:22.579)
And then there's just all the stress of it all. It's like, this is not how I want to live life. This is not enjoyable. So going to work wasn't enjoyable anymore. And then the opportunity to move out of Sydney came up. So my husband got a job here on the central coast and it was like, oh, this is like the opportunity now to do something new. And I was so lucky that he was so supportive in that both financially and he had confidence in me because we're the first ones to go.
I don't think I can do this. Like, I don't think I can step out my comfort zone and start something new and retrain. But he was like really supportive and, and you know, he was the one that saying you can do this, you know, you'll, you'll be great. It's your passion. So retrained as a personal trainer, got my cert three and four, and then thought this is it. Business is open. And I was like, I don't actually know what I'm doing. And I threw my net as wide as I could just like I'm gonna.
I'm gonna aim for older people, younger people, pregnant ladies, men, women. Like surely if I cast my net wide enough, I'm gonna bring in more fish. And that was not the case at all. So that probably lasted two, and I'm trying to think of how all my kids are now, probably two and a half years of just like clawing away at it, not having an absolute clue what I was doing, got to the point.
Jen Dugard (07:28.876)
Yep. Yep.
Louise (07:44.563)
Jen, we've talked about this before. I I was in tears every night. It's like, it's too hard. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not making any money. I've got to the point where I was probably about to pack business in. I out, was a surprise, I was having another baby. He was born prematurely. At this point, I was working with mums, but also other people as well. I out as pregnant, he was born preemie, so spent a lot of time in the knee queue, talking to other mums, which was lovely, but
Jen Dugard (07:47.79)
Mm.
Louise (08:13.393)
you soon realize that all these moms who'd had, most of us had had traumatic births, whether that was psychologically traumatic or physically traumatic or both, but nobody, from what we were talking about, nobody had been given any further education on either how to move or what services to try and offer. And I'm sure the help was there, but you would have had to go looking for it. wasn't readily available. It wasn't handed to you in this useful, I don't know, useful pack.
Jen Dugard (08:32.398)
Hmm.
Louise (08:43.231)
or anything like to say, you know, this is how you can start working on pelvic floor. This is how you should not bend over and lift after you've had a C-section or, know, there was none of that. And for me, so I was in the ward for about two weeks because of complications, but that was two weeks of lifting up a toddler after having a C-section. And then when you're discharged, that's when they give you like an A4 sheet of paper saying, don't drive, don't do this. That was two weeks of lifting up a toddler.
Jen Dugard (09:13.326)
Mm.
Louise (09:13.875)
with no guidance on how to move, to breathe, how to brace, how to not push down through scar tissue or pelvic floor. So it was that point I was like, I think I want to work with mums. This is like where I feel comfortable. This is where I can make a difference. And then I just happened to meet you as well, Jen. I came out of hospital, know, things settled down. Isaac was, we brought Isaac home after a long, time.
started up business again as just strong mums. And then it's like, you fell into my lap and, hello.
Jen Dugard (09:44.067)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (09:47.538)
There we are, there we are. And I was gonna say, if people wanna dig deeper into that part of the journey, we delve right into that in episode, no, not episode, yeah, episode 25, which is in season one of the podcast. And so you're working with mums in the park, doing strong mums, and we talked about the birth of the Body Resilient Mum Project.
Louise (10:15.027)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (10:15.586)
give us a little bit more of an idea of, you it wasn't quite two years ago, but it started, so you've got the project that is for mums, and then the evolution of that has been to develop the trainer side of things, but why did you decide to create the Body Resilient Mum project in the first place?
Louise (10:35.687)
I think when we're talking about, I mean, you're really good, Jennet, at asking us the hard questions. And one of those hard questions was, what's your superpower? Like, what are you good at? Far out. And at first you're like, I don't know, I'm not good at anything. But once you start thinking about it, it's like, you know what, I've got this background of psychology. I've got a great education in it. It's actually what I'm still passionate about because I didn't leave the job because I didn't like it. It just didn't suit my lifestyle anymore.
How can I bring that back to suit my lifestyle? And then I think I was on a bit of a crisis call with you going, oh my God, all my clients have left at the end of term. What am I gonna do? And we start throwing around some ideas. And then we came up with an online course to help moms with their body image because I am really passionate about focusing on what your body can do, helping you to learn that it's not about what you look like because if you're always striving to look a certain way, you're always gonna be following these shifting goal posts and that's just not.
how your body works. It's not how our bodies are meant to be. So my passion is helping moms to realize that focusing on what your body can do and what it's capable of is so much more effective than focusing on being a certain weight or a certain shape or a certain size. So that's when this online course idea came about, went and booked an Airbnb, did all the video editing and shooting and had a mini photo shoot as well.
professional business photographer, which was heaps of fun, and created content for this online course. And then I'm trying to think how the trainer course came along. think talking to mom, what I found, back up, back up, what I found is that moms are really good, and not all moms, like I'm being very general, but this is definitely myself included. A lot of moms and women are really good at nurturing their children, their family.
even their pets, doing what they can to look after everyone else. But when it comes to, and maybe even their own health, really good at now, going, yeah, I need to get stronger, I need to eat better, I need to take re-eating, I need to have more protein. But when it comes to something that we can't see, like our mental health, I don't think we're all always that good. And often the moms as well who I think,
Louise (12:58.757)
need the most help with their body image are often the moms who do not know it. And they're usually the, I say moms, they're usually the women who are chasing the next short term fix because they think that that's where the confidence is going to come from. So I was finding it really hard to actually get through to those women who were out there, but were so focused on trying to either lose the weight or get into a size eight or whatever. And so
talking to other trainers about like, yeah, they feel the same thing. It was like, okay, so you have access to all these women who trust you in their group. So, you know, I'm talking to other trainers and they have a group of women who trust them. And that trainer over there, they have a group of women that have a good relationship with them and they trust them. So I could train the trainers to then help their clients as opposed to me trying to reach everyone.
and saying, this is how I can help with your body image. Like, okay, so let's go through the trainers and trainers can then support their clients. And then after talking to so many trainers as well, you realize, hang on, like everyone is, most people struggle with their body image, even the trainers, like even me sometimes I'm like, like I try to follow my own advice, but sometimes there's something that catches you off guard. And you're like, I can feel like those negative body image feelings come back again.
Jen Dugard (14:25.368)
Hmm.
Louise (14:26.515)
So it's also helping trainers to all work on their own body image at the same time as they're learning how to help their clients as well. It's kind of like twofold. I'm not sure if I went off of a huge tangent there, but that's how we came to be, where we've got these two courses, one for moms, one for trainers, and they can complement each other really well as well.
Jen Dugard (14:47.534)
And I think there's the impact perspective and then there's the business model perspective as well, right? Where you can sell the course to trainers and then maybe the trainers can sell the other course onto their clients and they can start to get a bit of a kickback from that process.
Louise (15:04.979)
Absolutely, because we all want the same thing. I want the same thing for my clients. I want to be able to support them, empower them. And so if you can make some money from that as well, yeah, so there'll be this affiliate membership where you sell the mom-based course to your clients, you get a percentage of that. So win, win, win, win.
Jen Dugard (15:25.326)
Yeah, and I guess the other element that we left out of this and it wasn't only just because your clients left at the end of turn because if that was the only conversation that this came from, I would have been like, go out there and get more fucking clients. Don't create another product. You need to fill up that before you create another product. But the bit I think, you you beautifully left out was the future planning for you and your business. What is that, Lou? Like, what's the goal there?
Louise (15:36.403)
Bye.
I'm sorry.
Louise (15:46.875)
Yeah.
Like the goal is to move on to online, not online coaching, but to move into Body Resilient Man project. However, I keep coming back to this, like I would very much miss the coaching with clients. So I'm very clear on what I don't want. I don't want to be dragging a trolley full of kettlebells through the park when it's nine degrees like it was yesterday. It's like, this is the bit I hate. But.
The interaction with clients is what I actually love. So I'm now trying to figure out, okay, so how can I do the body image, but the body resilient mom project, the body image work and still include the stuff that I love. maybe that's when the balance starts to shift a bit. Maybe I can pull back on the groups a little bit and go more heavy into body image or.
So for me, think the goal is to be able to be in a position where I can kind of shift that balance. Maybe sometimes I'd be more coaching, maybe sometimes I put more effort into body image stuff. So it's having that flexibility and that ability to bring income in from both. Whereas at the moment, I'm still very heavily reliant on the coaching side of things and strong moms, because that is my bread and butter and my business. But yeah, to be in a position where I've got
Jen Dugard (17:04.855)
Hmm.
Louise (17:09.915)
an audience in both pools to be able to kind of work from would be the main goal.
Jen Dugard (17:17.102)
Absolutely, and I think it's really important when you're a, you're someone who is a personal trainer, but doesn't necessarily want to get out of the industry to be able to have another income stream or another product or service in order to have a career progression. I think it's incredibly, incredibly important. you're right. Like you might get to a point that sounds like you're, you know, you can see that horizon of I don't want to be standing in a park anymore. And it's exactly how I felt like when I decided to stop.
Louise (17:32.871)
Yeah.
Louise (17:43.539)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (17:47.384)
doing what I did in Body Beyond Baby. It did just come to me though, it like, you need to just train people inside.
Louise (17:53.523)
We used to do that and it was the sound of the kids that just bounce off the walls. Maybe if it wasn't Mums and Bubs then perhaps.
Jen Dugard (17:55.926)
No cold, no equipment.
Jen Dugard (18:02.679)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (18:09.038)
I mean, there's so many different ways you could go with it, isn't there? It's like, do you get a coach to come in and do the mums and bums? So do you expand or keep your business running in that way? Or do you only take high ticket coaching clients that you do one-on-one work in a studio and then you support them with their body image and maybe bring it in? Like there's so many different directions that you can go.
Louise (18:23.496)
Yeah.
Louise (18:28.915)
And this is, yeah, exactly. And this is the point I want to be at where I can play around and have a go, but without losing income, because I know there's a good income stream from one and I know that there's a good income stream from the other. So I want to be at the point where I can reliably kind of play around with stuff, know, shift the levers and find that balance. Whereas, yeah, at the moment, I want to like increase the income from the Body Resilient Mom project so that I can do that and have a, have a play around.
Jen Dugard (18:38.594)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (18:58.124)
Mmm.
Louise (18:59.069)
But it's nice to be in the position where I don't want to leave strong mums because I don't like it anymore. Like I feel like I'm in a really fortunate position. Like I still love it and I still love the body image work. So I'm really fortunate that I am there.
Jen Dugard (19:05.976)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (19:16.246)
you created a plan like two years ago right so and it's I sometimes think that when you know you have a plan and you know you have your flexibility you're less attached to something therefore you become less resentful of something if it's the only thing that you can do.
Louise (19:29.011)
Yeah, yeah, I like that word. Yeah, feeling resentful over something. But that's one of my triggers. I know if I'm feeling resentful, something's not in alignment, like something needs to change. Because I do. can get really, really resentful. I'm a lovely person, but sometimes I can feel really resentful.
Jen Dugard (19:40.812)
Mmm. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (19:49.324)
Well, I think one of mine is, yeah, resentful and maybe it's just resentful. Like I'm like, I don't, no, I I know that if I've taken on too much, I'm rushing from one thing to another and all that kind of thing, but the real big, strong trigger feeling to let me know that I'm out of alignment with my values, I would say is resentment, which either shows up when I'm doing it I just don't fucking do it. And then I miss a deadline and I'm like, well.
Louise (19:55.237)
Yes.
Jen Dugard (20:15.714)
wasn't very professional but I resent to do that anyway so do I care? Like I do care, of course I care and I probably should have handled it better or said no in the first place. Yeah resentment's a big one, really big one.
Louise (20:23.603)
Yeah. Yep. And it leaks over into your family as well. If I ever see my husband, like I am working my ass off and I'm not saying he does it, he does. But if I happen to be working on something I don't want to be working on and I see him sitting down on his phone and he probably needs a break and like, that's fine. But I'm like, that's a warning for me.
Jen Dugard (20:41.068)
Relaxing, what the fuck are you doing?
Jen Dugard (20:51.786)
I love it. But I love that you can see that and then you take that with you moving forward and that's where we can really use our values and I trigger feelings to go well remember how you felt last time you said yes to everything? Do you really want to say yes? Or put more boundaries around them? It was interesting I had an experience this week where I've been asked to run a course and the time that they gave me didn't suit and I was like you know previous me probably would have done it, been pissed off about it, thought that...
Louise (20:58.225)
Yeah.
Louise (21:03.464)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (21:18.83)
you know, allowed some scarcity to creep in going, well, if I don't do it when they want me to do it, then I'm not going to get the opportunity. And I just kind of said, look, and I was so ready to let the opportunity go. And I was like, look, this is what will work for me. And they came back straight away and they were like, yep, no problem. We'll just adjust things at our end. And then I was like, oh, that's how it's supposed to feel. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.
Louise (21:39.033)
you
Jen Dugard (21:43.828)
Lou, let's dig into like the actual body resilient side of things because we can circle back to some of the business stuff as well as we go along because it's important. But you know, you gave a beautiful presentation at the Mumsafe retreat last year and I know a lot of our trainers, well the fact that a lot of them signed up to do the trainer course before you'd even done it, told us that, you know, it resonated with trainers. But you know, there's this thing where as a personal trainer,
Jen Dugard (22:16.16)
We're not immune to having body image stuff. In fact, some people probably got into the industry because they have a whole heap of body image, I'm going to call it stuff going on. How can we as trainers be authentic and being able to support our clients if we don't have our shit together ourselves in the first place?
Louise (22:34.769)
Yeah, right. I mean, I think the first thing to realise is that, like you've already said, we are not immune. We're human. Like, absolutely, we are not going to be immune to this. And I've already said, like, sometimes I feel it too. It's like, I feel that I'm pretty confident in not what my body looks like, but kind of how I view my body and my body image. Like, I'm pretty confident and feel quite resilient.
But sometimes it doesn't take much and you can get a knock back and you're like, oh, actually, like all those feelings from like when you're 16, 17, you know, going through that awkward teenage phase and like thinking that your body's not good enough, like it can all come flooding back. We've got a lifetime of stuff. I was gonna say trauma, not so much trauma.
Jen Dugard (23:22.338)
That is trauma, I don't know if it's not trauma, really.
Louise (23:25.199)
Well, yeah, kind of like a lifetime of learning that your body needs to be improved, that your body is not good enough and reaching trying to aim for unrealistic beauty standards. And so why would we suddenly as trainers go, no, I'm, it's fine. All that's fixed. Like, it's not like we've all got a lifetime of, we've all got a history behind us. And we've probably if we're all roughly the same age.
Jen Dugard (23:31.576)
Mm.
Louise (23:52.389)
similar age, you from the same generation, we've all experienced the same things. Like I'm thinking like the Atkins diet, the special K diet and the things that would
Jen Dugard (24:00.928)
The lemon, the lemon detox diet.
Louise (24:04.275)
Yeah, like, hello. Like it sounds absolutely ridiculous on paper, but when we grew up with it, and it was considered the norm. And when we consider that we've all grown up with thinking that being lighter, thinner, losing weight is the same as being healthy. It's been the norm for us for our whole life. So as trainers, we can't be expected to just go, oh, no, I'm like,
I'm fine with, you know, X, Y, Z. I'm fine with, you know, like feeling confident in my body or, you know, we're just not. So as I think the first step is to go, I can still be a work in progress. I can still be working on my own body image and still find some things difficult, but still help my clients at the same time. Because if you wait until you're fixed, like that's quote.
Jen Dugard (24:57.602)
we ever fixed.
Louise (24:59.943)
call marks on the test. If you wait till you're fixed, then you're going to miss out on helping a load of clients who actually really need your help because we never ever done, there's no such thing as being fixed. It's always going to be a work in progress. And what I dive into in the trainer course is
Imposter syndrome and it kind of comes from there's two folks to this imposter syndrome it's either feeling like an imposter because you're trying to help your clients with their body image, but you don't feel like you've got your own body image shit together or feeling like you don't have the body of what a typical personal trainer should look like and and Again, if I could quote it with little quote marks typical There's no such thing as like an ideal or typical body of a personal trainer
And I go into the course, in the course I go into saying that your body is not your business card. it's what you're
Jen Dugard (25:54.51)
But it was for so long, I've even said that. I know I said that back in the day. Like, your body's your business card. Like, what a fucked up thing that...
Louise (26:00.851)
Yeah.
But at the time it didn't feel like it. I also say, I probably stole this from you, Jen, but you don't, in fact I did steal it from you. You don't know what you don't know, but once you know what you're missing, like what your education or what your personal development is missing, then you have that responsibility to do something about it.
Jen Dugard (26:12.654)
You
Louise (26:27.539)
So you can go back to what you used to say in the past or what you used to tell your clients or what you used to tell yourself or your friends and go, yeah, that was shit. Like hands up, I've done that. But you didn't know at the time. So you don't know what you don't know. But now you do know and look, you're running a podcast and you're having guests on like me and we're talking about the internet. So the world is good. But yeah, like even me as a personal trainer, this would probably be what's seven, six to seven years ago.
Jen Dugard (26:44.856)
Hehehehehe
Louise (26:57.381)
I've used before and after pictures of clients. Like when they first started and maybe a year down the line training with me and I purposefully picked a before picture when their body was bigger and then after picture when their body was smaller. Like I am 100 % guilty of it. And in the course I go into not the do's and don'ts of business, like that is not what the course is about, but kind of getting trainers to think about.
what their actions are doing. So I talk about before and after images and why it can actually be damaging to your client's body image if you use before and after pictures. And I know like you might get a lot of people go, my God, like I do that. Fuck off. Like that's how I want to run my business. That is absolutely fine. But the aim is to get you to think about like what effects are your actions having? And even if you don't stop, it's like, have a think about it.
Jen Dugard (27:52.259)
Hmm.
Louise (27:55.357)
Like when we're so focused on what someone's body looks like rather than what they can do.
Jen Dugard (28:00.942)
Yeah, I think there's so many layers to this, isn't there? It's like before and after photos that, you know, one image is bigger, one image is smaller, the smaller being the better one. You know, the person that gets the smallest over a 12 week period is the winner. There's so much like wrapped up in that. And then there's the other side of it in that, you know, we should get rid of that completely.
Louise (28:11.549)
Yeah.
Louise (28:16.145)
Boom.
Louise (28:20.531)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Dugard (28:27.488)
And then I also think sometimes, and you can call me on any of this, is we've gone so far the other way that people now feel shame for wanting to lose weight and they can't say that I want to lose weight. Like, how do you handle that? I know we've bounced around a little bit and we'll circle back to what you're talking about, but how do we, how do we stop? Like it's almost like, yeah, I know want to lose a couple of kilos. Like people, are afraid to say that now.
Louise (28:40.552)
No.
Louise (28:49.395)
Yeah. And so this is a whole module in, in my course, it's how you can support your clients with body composition goals, but still support them with their body image. And so I'd start that module by going in saying there is a misconception that people think that you can't be a positive body image advocate.
and help people lose weight, but actually you can. And it's all about one, being open with your clients. So you wanna have this open relationship with them so that they feel confident in saying to you, I wanna lose weight, but I still feel this about my Like I still love my body, but you want them to tell you what you don't wanna do is them go off in secret and start trying to lose weight without your support. Like you want them to come to you and be open.
And it's about helping them to realise that if they want to lose weight, great, why do they want to lose weight and have that honest conversation with them and build up that relationship with them. So you can keep saying, why, why? And keep digging and digging because what we want to help them move away from is helping them to lose weight because they think that it's going to make them more confident or more happy or fit into, you know, societal norms or
because they'll feel more loved or more worthy if they're a different size or shape or weight. That's what we want to move them away from. What we want to be able to support them with is, okay, so you want to lose weight. It's because you want to do your first pull-up or because your knees are sore and if you lose weight, you'll be able to run that marathon or things like that. So how can we help them to, I'm saying lose weight. It might be build muscle or it might be, you know, change.
Jen Dugard (30:37.4)
think saying you're losing weight is good because that's why people push back against this, right? Yep.
Louise (30:40.691)
Yeah. So how can you help your clients lose weight in a way for reasons that is going to improve their
Jen Dugard (30:48.504)
But what if she just wants to lose weight? Do we get to a point, and I feel like I'm getting more and more to this point, the older I get, where I might want to lose a couple of kilos, but I'm not fucking beating myself up if I don't. And it's like, cool, let's see what my body can do next. Or.
Louise (30:58.323)
Yeah.
Louise (31:05.363)
And it's kind of like, we'll just also be accepting that your clients have body autonomy, like they can choose what they want to do with their body. But hopefully you've got that relationship with them, or you can learn how to build that relationship with them through my online course. On how you can keep asking why, okay, so what's driving that for you? And they don't have to have this amazing answer. But as long as they can, you can get the honesty from them and they're not saying
Jen Dugard (31:33.13)
Mmm.
Louise (31:33.873)
because I hate my body the way it looks or because I don't feel good enough. Like we want to just be able to openly talk about it and say, so why? Okay, cool. Let's see how I can support you in that in a really healthy way. And you know, like avoiding things like using burpees as punishment or exercise as punishment or talking about burning off the calories that the extra calories that you had at the weekend. So it all kind of like you're very right, it's all layers. And there's not one thing
Jen Dugard (31:47.31)
Hmm.
Louise (32:03.333)
as a trainer that you're going to do, that's going to magically change everything for your clients or, or, you know, like change the way that they think about their body, it's all going to be the layers. And then that might come down to your clients, just confident enough to say, I just want to lose two kilos. Okay, great. Let me support you in that. But yeah, but without getting you can't get to that point without
Jen Dugard (32:26.531)
Yeah.
Louise (32:31.315)
being honest and having all the conversations before. So it's kind of like, it feels like you have to do a lot of work to come to a point and go, okay, but you need to, you need to do all that work to have that conversation. Otherwise you never know what's going on in someone's mind, how they're thinking, what's going on in their life. So yeah, does that answer your question? I don't even know.
Jen Dugard (32:34.541)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (32:54.601)
I think so. I don't even know what the question was, but it was good. I think that there's a level of observation that a trainer, the more experience you get as a trainer, your clients might be saying one thing to you and then you observe them in all the other spaces. And especially when it comes to body image, because if we stay on the topic of, I feel shame if I say I want to lose weight, they might...
Louise (33:20.093)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (33:22.304)
either not say they want to lose weight or they might say that they want to lose weight and justify it with other reasons. And that's all okay because you need to listen to what they're saying. But then it's, we potentially get to tune into, you know, how are they coming into the gym? What little remarks are they making? Are they talking about...
how bad it was that they ate chocolate in front of the TV last night. Are they coming in like playing with their clothes or, you know, doing whatever and it's almost like their unconscious words and actions are really a lot of the ones that will help us to really understand where their motivation is kind of coming from. So Lou, if you've got someone that's, you know, whether they've said they want to lose weight or not, but they're talking.
unkindly about themselves or they're consistently coming in or maybe they've even commented on like maybe it's a mum and she's commented on her daughter who's put weight on as a young teenager or something like that. How do we then, because some trainers will go I just ignore that conversation. It's like I don't think I align with the ignoring approach. Like what would you say the best approach is?
Louise (34:31.262)
them.
Louise (34:34.755)
it's really hard because everyone's different, they? So some people are going to react very differently to other people. And you might find some clients are very open to a conversation, whereas other clients might just shut down and be so embarrassed. like, I'm never coming here again, or I'm never talking about that again. And that's obviously what we don't want. So my advice is to just get to know your clients. And if you don't feel that you know them well enough yet, then go for the softly, softly, gentle approach.
And maybe it could start with, talk about this in my course, in that you don't always have to have those deep, meaningful conversations with everyone all the time. Like you're not there to be a therapist, you're not there to be a psychologist, you're there as a trainer. And that means that you could run things like webinars, podcasts, it could be the language that you use in your group. like you, you lead by example, so the language that you use, you might have some group rules.
in place for the whole group, not just for one person. And maybe they're emailed to someone in a welcome email when they join. So, know, these are the guidelines or a group code of conduct or whatever you want to call it for your class. It's like, you know, no talking about other people's bodies or no talking about whatever you want to talk about.
Jen Dugard (35:50.446)
you
Louise (35:52.275)
So it could be anything like that or you might say, so this week we're gonna have a body image challenge and I want you to come up with, know, like day one, 10 days that you love about your body that has nothing to do with the way it looks. It could be anything, like it's your business and you've got freedom over what you offer your clients and how you talk to them.
but you'll find that there's never that one thing that you do that makes a difference. It's going to be over the months, even the years, and it's the layers that you put into it rather than that one conversation that you have. And maybe some people do not want that one conversation. Maybe they're just going to subtly pick up on what you're saying or what you're doing in the background. Maybe it's the things that you put on social media that they start reading and that starts to change the way that they think. And then they come to you one day and go, you know, what you said.
in your Facebook post made such a difference to me. Or your newsletters. You know, there's so many ways that we can change our language or talk to our clients or our audience. And it doesn't have to be trying to address that one thing that that one client did once, if that makes sense.
Jen Dugard (37:04.118)
It makes total sense and it's that almost cultural changes in it within your business and you can consciously start to change the language that you use and information that you share and the way that you share it, even down to the images that you choose are on your advertising and your social media is huge. So Lou, you talked a little bit about like whether it's do's and don'ts or...
Louise (37:21.979)
Yeah, I think.
Jen Dugard (37:27.414)
awareness is like so what are some things that trainers could be could change so do do this don't do that or don't do this do do that
Louise (37:37.363)
For starters, I'd go with language. Language is a big one. And whether it's your language verbally to your clients or whether it's your social media presence, it's, you know, don't use language that uses exercise as punishment or reducing food as punishment. We, you know, like we don't want that payoff system between exercise and food.
I feel like that can be really, even if it's done in jest, like, you know, you'll see like after Easter or Christmas, it's like, burn off those extra calories. And it's like, it might be done in like a funny way and you probably do it with the best intentions, but that's actually not really helpful. So the language that you use, either what you're saying directly to your clients, what you're saying to your audience, don't use language that has this payoff between food and exercise.
And then what we do want to do is when we have these conversations with clients.
you can, there's this really nice principle called the rule principle. This is in the course, by the way, the rule principle, which is R-U-L-E. So we want to when someone's talking to us, maybe about their body, maybe it's like the way that they feel about their body, or maybe, know, they've they've reached menopause, or they're in perimenopause, and they're like, I just hate the way that my body feels or looks at the moment, you know, there's something there. And they're talking about what they don't like about their body. Try
I feel like I've gone and do this, but don't is what I've gone into. Don't jump in with the resist with the writing reflex. So the first thing we usually want to do is go, no, no, you don't look like that. Or no, no, you don't. That's not you. Or no, you don't need to lose weight. We want to try and avoid that. So we want to jump in with listening. So sit there, listen to what they've got to say rather than jumping in and trying to fix it. So we want to.
Louise (39:34.299)
resist the urge to write them or to correct them. And then you, so R-U-L-E, we wanna understand their goals. So we can talk about, okay, so this is how you're feeling. So what are your goals? Like, what do you want from your body? Like, what do you want it to do? And we wanna try and steer them towards what they want their body to do rather than what they want their body to look like or way. And then we've got L, R-U-L-E. We've got...
I have to look at my list. Listen with empathy. So we want to listen to where they're coming from. Listen and try to understand their reasoning behind what they're saying. And then E is, my God, I can't even read my own writing. E is empower. So we want to empower them with their own strengths. What are their strengths? What are their internal strengths? Are they dedicated to exercise? Are they...
you know, are they dedicated to their family? What are their strengths? And you can use that to empower them to reach whatever their goals are. So it's like, sometimes I think as trainers, we feel really lost in having these conversations. It's like, where do we even go with this? And I really like that as just a little principle of these are the things that we want to try and do in that conversation. And that was a really big, this is what you said, like, what are the do's and don'ts? All of that.
Jen Dugard (40:58.606)
Do do all of this. Do do the rule.
Louise (41:00.595)
So yeah, if you were to summarise it, would be be very mindful of the language that you're using. We want to avoid that payoff system between food and exercise and try to have these open conversations where we're not jumping in and trying to tell someone, you don't need to do that or you don't look like that.
Jen Dugard (41:23.446)
compliment people.
Louise (41:25.059)
it's really hard.
Jen Dugard (41:27.896)
But it's like I've had a couple of people recently say, I don't know if I'm supposed to say this, but, and like, you know, your body's maybe changed and like, but more in a positive way. So again, it's like that, you know, there's the, don't come on, comment on bodies, which I actually think is good for, someone that has a history of looking for self-worth outside of my self and my body and going through in my twenties, early thirties of.
Louise (41:37.074)
No.
Louise (41:53.373)
Yes.
Jen Dugard (41:57.902)
definitely smaller has to be better. I was very, you if someone complimented me on losing weight, that was, that was a lot to very much shifting out of even using that language towards other people. In fact, I think now when someone's lost a lot of weight, I'm like, are you okay? Like what is going on? It's more where my brain goes. But what would you say to that conversation? Like,
Louise (42:21.139)
That's, that is a really difficult one. My, my general advice would be if you know a person, if you know a person well enough and you think that they've lost weight, probably ask in a very roundabout way, like what's going on? How's, you know, I don't know, how's your health? I don't know. If you know, like if you know them well and you feel that you can ask, how is life going? You know, then do, do so. What I try and avoid is
Oh, you look like you've lost weight, like in a really positive way, because like you said, what if they're not okay, and that is why they've lost weight or what if they have lost weight purposefully, but probably not from a place of love? you maybe that maybe they have maybe they've improved their health, they're getting stronger, and they've never been as healthy as they are now. But you don't know, I think is the thing. So if you know that person well enough to start a conversation that's triggered by the way that they look,
skirt around the edge of it, ask how they're going and things will probably come out in conversation and you'll find out what's been going on with them. If you don't know them well enough to do that then you shouldn't be saying stuff about their body anyway because that's weird. But it is how we've been brought up isn't it? It's like oh you've lost weight you look great. It happened to me maybe about six months ago, I don't know, some time ago, it was in the summer and it was my...
Jen Dugard (43:34.328)
Totally.
Louise (43:47.539)
It was a family kind of barbecue, but their neighbors from the road had come. No, was a... And she came over and she went, oh, you've lost weight. hadn't, I'm pretty sure I hadn't, like I'm pretty stable with my weight. She went, you've lost weight. And I was like, I don't know what to say. was like, no, I haven't. went, you have? I haven't, honest. I was like, I'm just...
Jen Dugard (43:50.038)
met was it a man okay
Louise (44:15.399)
just training, just, I think in the end I went, I'm just living life. And she was so adamant on telling me that I'd lost weight.
Jen Dugard (44:23.32)
But did she say, give her like an opinion on that? Like, or did she, it evolve the conversation or it was just like, you've lost weight.
Louise (44:29.403)
No, I think the fact that I just went, just living life, just trying to just, no.
Jen Dugard (44:35.276)
Yeah, it's almost like that, that digging, like if someone's lost weight and someone else is feeling insecure, they're constantly looking around to go, what's my next quick fix and lose lost weight. So now I'm going to talk about it then I'm going to find out what she's been doing.
Louise (44:47.923)
Yeah, who knows, but I was like, I felt really uncomfortable. Whereas, I don't know, maybe in the past I would have gone, oh, thank you, I must look really good and then tried to figure out what I could do to lose even more weight if I lost, I don't know. It made me feel really uncomfortable. And my advice is just don't compliment people in the way that they look, unless it's like, oh, that's a lovely dress. That's okay, that's acceptable, but not people's bodies, not the size, not their weight, not...
Jen Dugard (45:14.488)
Yes. Yeah.
Louise (45:18.807)
skin complexion, I don't know maybe this complexion, into a fuzzy grey area but yeah we just want to avoid making comments about people's bodies. I very much try not to do it in front of the kids in fact I never
Jen Dugard (45:20.278)
Yep. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep.
Jen Dugard (45:33.708)
the kids that you're going, I just want to caveat, those kids are home today, and so we can hear them in the background. But that is okay on this podcast because we're juggling motherhood and business, and we're here for all the things. It's good.
Louise (45:37.203)
Thank you.
Louise (45:44.403)
I was like, can you guys be quiet for like half an hour?
Jen Dugard (45:49.912)
think it did the total opposite. they're like, she needs us to be quiet. So we're just going to be really loud. But I hear what you're saying around the kids. And I think it's important to have positive conversation. Like, you know, we talk about bodies and what they can do and are we fueling the right fuel for what we want our bodies to do rather than bigger, smaller equals good, bad, otherwise. Yeah.
Louise (46:13.512)
Yeah.
Mm-mm. Yeah, exactly.
Jen Dugard (46:18.742)
Lou, I've not primed you for this question at all, but I'm going to ask it. What do you think the GLP-1?
epidemic is doing to, you know, there's definitely, no, I'm going to throw it to you first. Like, what do you, no, I will say that. Like, I think that there's definitely this space for it from a health perspective for some people. So I don't want to ever take away from, there are definitely people who will benefit from using a weight loss drug of some description. What do you think it's doing to our body image?
Louise (46:28.403)
Yeah.
Louise (46:34.899)
you
Jen Dugard (46:56.652)
or body confidence and body image conversation. Cause we've come from the size zero. I just see Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie just shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and thinking that size zero was good. And then we've come so far in the body positivity or body neutrality movement to then introduce the drug that some people are taking that are relatively normal size.
From a psychology body image perspective, what are your thoughts?
Louise (47:25.359)
I totally agree. mean, you could look at it in the sense that imagine that it wasn't a drug and imagine it was a new diet saying like, imagine it was a diet, like you'd still get those people doing the same things. I think the difference is, is that this is so the effects are so much more immediate because you know, it reduces your appetite, it can make you feel nauseous. You're not eating that much and
and all the other side effects that mean that you're losing that weight. My advice, I mean, it would be the same as if it was a diet. It would be, you've got people who do not need it, but would take it. And then you've got the people who really would...
their health would benefit from it. It's the same conversation that we were talking about earlier. It's like, what are your motivations for it? Like, why do you want to take this? And if it's because it's going to help lower their cholesterol, improve their cardiovascular health, because they're to be moving more because they're lighter. These are all the things that you're like, yes, like they're the that's the reason why this drug could be helpful. If you've got the people who are saying, well, because I want to lose weight, I need to be a size eight, I need to, you know, be
skinny, you need to, you know, all these things. They're the red flags that go, that make you go, that is not for you. Now, unfortunately, I think there's some doctors out there who would prescribe it too willingly. And there's not, I don't know what the, what the regulation is around it. Like, how do you decide that's for that person, but not for that person?
Jen Dugard (49:05.71)
Yeah, I think there's a lot of even online where you just plug in your BMI and people give it to you and you could lie.
Louise (49:12.219)
Yeah, and there's that as well. So I don't think it's regulated enough, but I'm the same as you. I definitely wouldn't say, no, this is a terrible drug and people should not use it because it can be life changing for some people. Like I know, I know people who have used it to get to a certain body weight and then they're coming off it and
being the way that they are has allowed them to move more. It's allowed them to be pain free. It's given them the opportunity to do so much. What I think there needs to be is more support in how to eat properly after that, because you've gone through about a year, few years of probably not eating enough, which is why the weight loss has occurred. How do you then fuel an active lifestyle with the right food and the amount of food?
that's where those people need help because otherwise it's they're going to go back.
Jen Dugard (50:07.991)
It becomes a yo-yo dieting situation, right? Yeah.
Louise (50:09.723)
Yeah, exactly. So yes, it's a really helpful tool for a lot of people, but they need that support at the end, which I don't think as far as I'm aware.
Jen Dugard (50:20.266)
support at the beginning so prescribing JLP ones in association with food and like nutrition and exercise and some psychology.
Louise (50:26.419)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, some work on body image as well, perhaps. But there's, if you're then going to the gym and you're taking the this medication, you need to make sure that the little food that you are eating is really nutritious because you're not going to muscle or increase your bone density if you're not fueling your body well, little food that you're having. And then
Jen Dugard (50:53.101)
Hmm.
Louise (50:56.211)
I mean, I don't know enough about it, but I think some of the long-term effects have found that it does reduce your bone density as well. So as women who are over 35, like that is definitely not what we want. I don't think there's the one answer. I think it's really complex and it's just not really wrong. It should be a no-no for others. It's helpful, but you need that support system in place.
Jen Dugard (51:07.758)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (51:15.508)
it's all complex, isn't it? Like this whole topic is complex.
Jen Dugard (51:25.421)
Mm.
Louise (51:25.445)
It's really interesting and yeah, but I'm like you. I'm not like saying no, it's awful. I think it can be really helpful. It's a tough one.
Jen Dugard (51:38.294)
It is, is. Lou, if trainers have been listening and they want to find out more about the Body Resilient Mum project, or mums, where do they go? What do do?
Louise (51:44.883)
I can go to www.bodyresilientmomproject.com.au
Jen Dugard (51:51.746)
And that's either a trina or a mom. Cool.
Louise (51:53.561)
Yep, so it'll take you to the page and then it'll say, I'm a mom who wants to work on their body image. I'm a trainer who wants to help my clients work on their body image and you can one of those options.
Jen Dugard (52:01.568)
Amazing. And trainers can just sign up, do the course. How do they then become an affiliate? How does that work?
Louise (52:07.763)
So once you finish the course, there's an affiliate, you'll get an invitation to become an affiliate. So you can sign up with that link. And then if you want to give that to your clients, they sign up with that link. And that means that you get 20 % of that.
Jen Dugard (52:19.894)
Amazing. Yeah. I love it. I absolutely love. So like for me sitting on the inside of this, it's like, it's such a powerful education that you're offering to both trainers and moms. And from a business perspective for you, it's like the evolution of you from personal trainer, delivering group sessions, becoming the go-to trainer for moms in your area to then going, what is my future plan? And how does this all fit together? It's such a good example of.
the trainers listening of how to develop yourself as a exercise professional and have that longevity in the industry and continue to grow your business because there's only so much, even if you didn't want to get out of your group training, right? At some point, there's only so much we can and we want to do. Cause it's a lot. Yeah. Lou, thank you so much for being here again. Episode 25, if anyone wants to go back in and have a look at, have a look at that.
Louise (53:07.665)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (53:18.51)
It's such an honor to share this journey with you. And I thank you for all of the work that you're doing. Inside Mumsafe, you're always there to support the other trainers, which is amazing, but then watching your dedication to growing your business every single step of the way, I get excited about that.
Louise (53:38.707)
Oh, you're going make me cry. Thanks. It's like a pep talk. I came on here to talk about business. I'm like, oh, it feels so good.
Jen Dugard (53:47.726)
What a good note to leave it on. Thank you so much, Lou. I'll talk to you soon. Take care. Bye.
Louise (53:50.707)
Very welcome. Bye.
