Jen Dugard (00:00.93)
Welcome to the Mumsafe Pro podcast. I'm your host, Jen Dugard, and today's guest is Anna Le Carpentier. Educating and supporting women on the importance of exercise through all stages of life, including pregnancy and postpartum, is Anna's main focus. Anna has over five years experience as an exercise professional, and she studied her Cert III and Cert IV in fitness in 2019.
and she became pregnant just three weeks into the course. When returning to exercise, Anna realized there was a lack of pre and postnatally qualified trainers in her area. So after her maternity leave, she decided to become the pre and postnatal trainer that she required. She studied safe return to exercise and ultimately became a mum safe trainer.
Anna is passionate about providing a comfortable, judgment-free environment for women of all ages and stages to exercise safely and confidently. In today's episode, we dig into how the experience of many women could be improved and Anna's transition from working for somebody else to stepping into her own business and how this transition is feeling really, really great for her.
Anna had already done a lot of the groundwork in becoming known in the space of working with pre and post-natal women, and it really does show. If you're someone who wholeheartedly believes that we need to do better and wants to have an impact on the women and mums of your community, and you know you need to take brave steps to get there, this is a great episode for you. Let's dive in.
Jen Dugard (00:01.582)
Welcome the Mumsafe Pro podcast. How you going? I'm so excited that we get to chat. And this has been a really fast turnaround to a frustrated Instagram conversation between you and I to let's have a conversation on the podcast. Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna get there. We'll keep that as a bit of a cliffhanger so people stay listening. But Anna, share with me a word, a win and something that you're working on at the moment.
Ana (00:03.794)
Good, thanks for having me.
Me too.
Ana (00:17.818)
Absolutely. Love it.
Ana (00:29.082)
Okay, I had to think about this. My word is grateful because it just seems to be a daily word at the moment, which I'm loving. My win would be a super successful impromptu term three in the past, which is great. And what I've been working on is term four because yeah, term three went so well and I've had a lot of interest and have almost filled up my term four, which so working on that.
Jen Dugard (00:52.808)
And for you, this is a new part of the business, right? Like you've transitioned to working outside. Yep.
Ana (00:56.111)
Yeah.
Ana (00:59.396)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I worked inside a small studio for a long time and then I moved to a commercial gym and I actually had no intention. I said to a friend the other day, I never thought I'd be the PT in the park. But I transitioned, well, not even transition, I just started in the park because I speak at a local mom's group every term and have done for the last three, 18 months. And yeah, now that I am in a different location, I said to them,
Jen Dugard (01:12.427)
You
Ana (01:27.618)
just kind of offhand as if he has the interest that we probably look at doing something in the park and I had 24 of them say yes which I was like shocked about so yeah we just basically ran it as a trial term like a whole it was only six weeks but six weeks worth of I've run groups before for mums but not in the park so six weeks of what I love to do and then it's been so great they all want to continue and all the bring all their friends basically so it's been great yeah
Jen Dugard (01:54.542)
That's so good. We're gonna like dig into how you ended up in the park from a studio in a little while but what I'd love to do to begin with is let's kind of backtrack and get to know you a little bit. So you know how did you end up in the industry in the first place? How did you end up working with Mums?
Ana (02:13.722)
Yeah, cool. I think I probably downplay it a little bit, but it seems really kind of typical, but also kind of a natural progression. So I grew up playing sport and, but I was never a skinny human. I wasn't like super overweight either, but I just had a lot of, I guess, body image issues, probably a good conditioning of growing up in the 90s.
and so I struggled with that a fair bit. And then when I went to uni at 20, I found the gym, fell in love with strength training. and then basically went from there, I had my own physical transformation, but what really, changed the game for me was the mental health side of exercise and how good it feels to feel strong. And I, way back then I used to work for my dad and he, run his own business, but
there was a lot of heavy deliveries that used to turn up and we would have to, we didn't have a forklift so we'd have to get up, unload the pallet onto the side of the truck and then get down from the truck, take it inside and my dad, don't touch that, you'll hurt yourself, go away dad, I can do this, it's fine, I'm strong. And I did that, I trained all the way to 34, pardon me, 34 weeks in my pregnancy because that's when the gym shut down from COVID. And I just felt so good to be strong.
anyone who's listening to this probably knows that, preaching to the choir, but it was really the best thing ever for my mental health. And so probably like 10 years into my exercise journey, was said, someone said to me, you'd make a really great PT. And I was like, no, whatever. That's not a thing. Anyway, eventually I decided yes, I would become a PT. So I started my set three, four, and two weeks in found out I was pregnant, which was great.
poor timing on my part but great timing. And so I did my um I slept through the first trimester basically but then I finished my PT course and I walked right into a job because the gym I was training at she was like if you once you get qualified you can come and work here so I was like great. And so I did that for two months and then COVID hit and I had a baby and I took six months off to be with my baby and then I I'm not the mum I learned really early on that I'm not the mum that can stay home with my kids I need some other
Ana (04:36.114)
kind of stimulation. love my kid and I'll spend all the time with her when I can but I also need something else. So I went back to the gym, I was taking classes with her strapped to me in the vicaria. And then, but it was when I started to go back to exercise and I thought, you know, I'm not doing a PT, I'll be fine. And I think it was literally the very first time and all I was doing was playing around in the gym, pardon me.
playing around in the gym seeing what I could do like physically and where I was at and I jumped like I just did like a broad jump and I landed and had this intense pain run from basically my pubic bone all the way up into my stomach and I was like that's not normal what the heck is going on there and back then I had no idea postpartum training wasn't a thing that I was even aware of and when you do your PT course which basically I'm so fresh I don't even work
two months before I took maternity leave. There's like half a paragraph on trending women and women are small men and don't even get me started on that, it makes me angry now. But at the time there was no difference so was like what is like what's wrong with me like I just had a baby there's nothing that much has changed. And then I did got on Google as you do because no one around me knew anything about it and I found you and I found your...
Jen Dugard (05:59.503)
so you found us through a Google search after that event? Yeah, right.
Ana (06:02.352)
Yeah, a Google search. Yes. And I found your safe return textiles for new moms. It like an online by-part, something, it was a long time ago now. And I was like, this is cool. And then I thought to myself, and I did all the things that you said in there. I went and found a physio and I, like women tell physio, and I did all of the things. And it helped because it turned out that I had a hypertonic pelvic floor and that's why the pain and I couldn't relax my pelvic floor for the life of me.
And so then with my physio, kind of learned about relaxing and then properly using it, engaging all those things. And it just changed the game completely for me. And I thought to myself, why, why is this not common knowledge? And then Jen gets on at the end of one of, think I did the, I think I did your free, like you did like the online thing. was like, why are you six weeks? Checkup is not enough. And I got on and I was like, why is this not common knowledge? Like, why are we not talking about this more? And I think because.
I had a really traumatic birth experience and then a traumatic return to exercise and I was like, why did I not know any of this? Basically, it's what you talk about all the time Jen, why did no one tell me about this? So I was like, no, it's not good enough, we need to do something about this. So then I did self-trained exercise and then I pretty much jumped straight into the affiliate program because I was like, this needs to be, this needs to be a thing, it needs to be something that more people know about and...
as mums we need to know that we are supported or there is support out there even if we are very well becoming louder but the very small noise in the fitness industry across the board but it needs like the more voices we have the better impact we can make and basically since then so I think I did your safe returns exercise in October and I ran my first term of mums program from November like it was straight into it was just it made me really
frustrated and angry but also extra passionate to help other mums. yeah, my mum's program took off. did not realize the... Well, I think I knew the need there from my own personal experience, but I did not realize how many other mums were thinking the exact same thing as me in my local area. So I did that. I ran that program for every term for like over a year. And then, yeah, my marriage broke down and a whole bunch of other personal things happened. So it stopped. I stopped having the energy to put into it, which...
Ana (08:27.634)
Now that I think about it, have more self-compassion, but back then I thought it was an excuse, but now I'm like, no, no, you were dealing with a lot. Um, and then, yeah, but I, then I started just taking on one-on-one clients and I would say about 90 % of my one-on-one clients were new moms and it got to the point and I rave about you and mom safe all of the time. think people get sick of hearing about it from me, but, um, I literally had people seeking me out because I was a mom safe trainer and.
Jen Dugard (08:51.128)
Bye.
Ana (08:56.658)
A lot of my clients who I still have now, I have trained for that 4 plus year mark because they came to me after their babies and they needed some kind of guidance. like there's some clients who, one client specifically I've trained for a long time and she had some of the most horrific birth injuries that I've ever heard of. And we have, I'll say her actually, I'm just very big supporter of her, but we have
really sought and fought for the right support for her. And she raves about me, which is beautiful, but I think just her persistence, and I think my encouragement of that persistence is what has gotten her the help she needs. But every single mum I work with that has a similar story, severity is always variant, but the more people I work with, the more I realize that just one more person, just help one more person. The more people that we help and the wider the reach is.
every mum should have the access to the support they need. yeah, I think from my own personal experience, I just don't, I will never stop trying to help just one more mum, like every time it's just one more mum. And now I've helped over hundreds of mums. But I think the more that we help, yeah, like I said, and, as you talk about all the time as well, like mums are the start basically, and then they influence their children and getting mums back into exercise safely so that they can live their life.
healthy, happy way. And then they influence their children to have a better relationship with exercise and then they grow up thinking exercise is normal, which I see a lot in the studio. worked out kids always, they were in a position where they were separate from the training, but they could see the training and it eventually into a kids class because like, think influencing that nature to the next generation is so important, but it starts with looking after our mums and not looking after them correctly is such a disservice to the woman herself, but I think to society in general.
Jen Dugard (10:54.286)
No, it's good. I'm like, I do not need to say anything else for the whole time. I'm just going to stand here and nod, nod, nod, nod, nod. We're going to pause for one second. So 11.02. The reason we're pausing, your coughing is fine, but if you can pause either side of it or mute it when you do it, we can, it's up to you. Maybe just pause either side and then I'll try and get Krish to just cut out the coughs so that people can't hear it. doesn't, it's totally, no, don't apologize. It's live.
Ana (10:58.098)
Yeah.
Ana (11:07.415)
Sorry. Yeah.
Ana (11:16.122)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, sorry.
Jen Dugard (11:22.754)
Okay so we're to come back in at about 12. Cool I'm just going to, no let's do 11.45 otherwise we'll be looking at each other for ages.
Cool.
Okay, there's so much that we can dig into. What I'm intrigued by to just to get a little bit more context is what I heard you say is you had a very traumatic delivery and then you learn you had a hypertonic pelvic floor. Tell me a little bit about your birth experience and then I guess I just want to see does it all just make sense and you should have been told that in the first place.
Ana (12:06.322)
100%, 1000%. So for me, I, like I said, was really into exercise, but I don't think I, before I met you, I don't think I'd ever heard of anyone talk about relaxing anything. And I think that is the problem is, yes, it all makes sense now. If I had seen a pelvic health physio prior to being pregnant or even at the early stages of my pregnancy and learnt to relax my muscles.
then I would have had a much easier time. So my birth basically I was in ju- it's a whole thing. went privately, my obstetrician was very... She was a lovely person but in terms of guidance I felt really unsupported and I went to all of my appointments by myself so I felt really quite alone and every time she would ask me a question I would say something along the lines of I'm not sure this is my first baby what do you think and she would say it's up to you.
What does that mean? Like, where do I go from there? So we were having a lot of scans and she was worried that my daughter wasn't growing. And so she said at 36 weeks, are we going to introduce you at 38 weeks? And I was like, okay. And looking back at it now, I just wish that I was stronger at listening to my, or better at listening to my intuition. But the minute I had to a waiver that she would do everything to support me. But if necessary, there might be a caesarian.
And the minute I put my pen to the paper to sign that waiver, I thought to myself, I'm going to have a caesarean. I just, I don't know. I just knew. Anyway, so two weeks later we go to the hospital. They induced me. It was most horrendous night of my life. And then the next morning they take us down to the birthing suite. They broke my waters. And then it was the most, the more I know now about birth and
all the things, I just cannot believe that I went through that. But they pushed through my labour very quickly and to the point that the midwife said to me, I'm pushing this through pretty fast, we're doing well. I was like, can you stop? Because my body was having these weird urges to push and I was only like three centimetres dilated. It was just a very weird out of control experience. I didn't feel like I was in control at all. And they kept offering me an epidural and I was like, no, no, don't want an epidural. And then...
Ana (14:29.458)
I had, I had gas and that made me vomit and I was like, no, never mind that. And I just couldn't get comfortable. I know labor's not supposed to be a walk in the park, but I couldn't get comfortable and I just felt really, I don't know, uncomfortable just on every level. And then it got to five hour mark and nothing was progressing. I think I was four centimeters thinned and they were like, you know, like, we kind of want to hurry this along. I was like, well, I don't really want to hurry it along. And then it was getting really,
uncomfortable so I asked the epidural and they gave me the epidural, maybe the five and a half hour mark and then maybe 10 minutes into the epidural, the baby went tachycardic. So they were really worried, they came in and they gave me an injection in the leg and the obstetrician came in and she's like I know you didn't want a cesarean but we're gonna need to take the baby out now because she's in distress. And at that time I was drugged up to the eyeballs and I was like whatever, get her out as long as we're both healthy, which I still believe as long as we're both healthy, but I just
It felt really unsupported in the whole process, like I just wasn't really in charge. And then we went down and had the emergency caesarean. And then after that, my recovery was awful. I didn't realize that I was going to have afterbirth pains and like my caesarean scar had to heal and I had an allergic reaction to the dressing that they put on my scar. So it was a whole, it was just a whole like not very good experience. And
Yeah, I didn't know anything about wound care until after I found your saprotransmitter in excess of new mums and went to the physio and she was like, have you been doing your wound care? And I was like, no, what am I supposed to do with that? And she's like, know, mass scar massage or anything like that. had no idea. yeah, now that I know more, I just wish that there had been someone that I even knew to talk to about it. But it just wasn't like...
wasn't a thing that I knew about basically and even I saw Women's Health with you at the hospital she came and saw me on like day two or three and I was like still like what is happening and then she said I'll book you for six weeks and then I went to six weeks and I actually don't remember what she told me now but I'd remember I remember thinking that what was the point of that appointment like like I didn't learn anything like am I allowed to go to exercise like what is the and then I went to see my obstetrician and she was like your baby's so cute
Ana (16:55.096)
you in two years when you have the next one." And I was like, what? And that was the end of my postpartum care. I was like, this is atrocious. And I didn't realize at the time, but I was so far deep diving into postnatal depression and nobody picked it up. The midwife that was visiting me at my house was like, you're doing such a great job. Your house is clean, your baby's happy. Catch you in two weeks. And I was like, okay, but what about me? The only day I'm not crying on my couch all day is the day you visit me.
And it was just, yeah, really not a great experience basically.
Jen Dugard (17:31.558)
Thank you for sharing all of that. There's so much that makes, that ignites this angry, angry feeling in me. there's just, you know, many people would have heard of what's called a cascade of events, which is where, you know, you have your induction and then just the shit after the shit after the shit kind of happens. And no wonder, because your body's not ready to give birth at 36 weeks and...
Ana (17:42.642)
you
Jen Dugard (17:55.67)
Therefore we have all of these outcomes.
Ana (17:55.954)
Well, that was other thing when they ended up doing my cesarean. They like had cut me open and then I feel, feel nothing because I have epidural, but I feel the supporting surgeon come up and shove under my ribs to try and push the baby down so they could pull her out of the way they've cut me. Obviously she was not ready to come out and it makes me angry to think about it now even because my baby hadn't even descended. Like why are they cutting her out already? But it was just, yeah, I just felt.
I had no control of like, or it was like a false sense of input. mean, like I didn't have any real input into the decision or any of the decisions I've made.
Jen Dugard (18:34.688)
Well, I think because you were not ever provided with the education, right? And I think there's this big, it's almost like the unknown that women or sometimes medical professionals will not fully inform women because we don't want to scare them. And there definitely is that out in the, I'm going to say in the marketplace in the world. But what it does is leave women feeling alone, uncomfortable, was a really, you know,
Ana (18:54.352)
Yes.
Jen Dugard (19:03.214)
a word you used a lot, but also just completely disempowered and to have no understanding about your body and not be able to have an educated conversation about the choices that you're going to make. And I also, know, our medical professionals do such an amazing job and there's such a big fucking gap between the education piece and the birthing woman and the postpartum. It's, yeah.
Ana (19:25.362)
100%.
Jen Dugard (19:31.598)
And the other thing is prenatal education is preventative, right? So why are we missing the prenatal education that every woman should have access to so that we don't get to that point or get to the point that you did?
Ana (19:49.286)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (19:51.375)
Do you want to share your client's story anonymously? Is that, or a client's story anonymously? Is that an okay situation or yeah?
Ana (19:58.672)
Yeah, absolutely. There's hundreds of them, Jen. The one that I spoke about earlier with all of the birth trauma, she had a vaginal birth, then through her first birth, ended up with a prolapse, quite a severe one. And she was sent to a physio for a pessary. And the pessary was always uncomfortable. It was a whole mismanagement basically. And she had a quite severe abdominal separation. I think it was...
Jen Dugard (20:02.007)
Yeah.
Ana (20:27.834)
It might be like six centimeters, I think. And so she found me, you know, I don't even remember the first time she started with me in semi-private in one of my return to exercise programs. But I remember thinking she was the easiest sail in the world because we spoke on the phone and I said, and she lives, so I was based in North Lakes and she was a private island, which is like probably in traffic, like maybe half an hour drive.
And she, spoke to on the phone and I was like, you want to come in and meet me? she's like, no. She's like, how much is it? And I told her and she's like, okay. She said send me the paperwork. And I was like, and like, it was probably one of the first times I'd done the semi-private version of my program. And I remember hanging up and I was like, what the heck just happened? Like she wants to pay me all this money for like, not all, know what I mean? Like she wants to pay me money for like, she doesn't even have met me. She doesn't know who I am. But what it was is she was looking for someone who understood postpartum exercise and she couldn't find it. And so she was willing to pay whatever it took.
basically to get the support she needed. when I met her, was honestly, the thing I love about her so much is she's willing to learn and she's willing to understand what is going on with her, what she wants to know what's going on with her body. But at the time she just needed some extra support. And so I sent her to my public health physiotherapy partner. And from there we managed to support her and then...
we got her pelvic floor and abdominal separation back to a place where she felt stronger in her body and then she went and had a second baby and then after the second baby her separation was quite severe again but we went into it from a more informed place because she'd seen the physio, well three physios actually, but the physio that I recommend and they had worked through her birth as well to try and prepare her especially around her prolapse which is like just managed, not as severe but still managed.
And she was able to have another vaginal birth, which is great, but she still feels really frustrated a lot. She says to me all the time, we've been training for this many years and I'm still not, we're like here. And I was like, yeah, remember when you first met me and you could barely activate your pelvic floor. And now we can do like abdominal exercises in tabletop, whereas once upon a time she couldn't even lift a leg. like, I have to remind her constantly that the severity of her injuries basically.
Ana (22:48.804)
it means that it's going to be difficult and also and we're not sure if it was the first baby or the second baby but she's recently been diagnosed with a bilateral emulsion so it's
Jen Dugard (22:59.022)
So no wonder nothing feels like it's getting better.
Ana (23:01.564)
Correct, right? Exactly. And so I said to her, and I have to keep reminding her that she, and she is much stronger, but she has a whole heap of things. like, bio-electrolysis, we're not sure how long we've been dealing with that, but it makes sense why she was having such trouble activating her pelvic floor. have quite severe abdominal separation. She has, it's not diagnosed hip dysplasia, but really her hips are quite out and we have to watch that a lot in the type of exercises we do and.
Even when we do two-legged exercises, just how she moves her body to make sure that, you know, she's stacking everything correctly and managing that. Tight hamstrings, weak, like tight hip flexes, like a lot of things. And she's trying to around after two very rambunctious boys, like I said to her. And on top of that, her and her partner, or her husband rather, are building their own house, like from scratch. And they just renovated their rental so they could sell it. And I said to her,
It's not like you sit on the couch all day and don't do anything. Like you are doing a lot and you are dealing with a lot like physically. I was like you like you are definitely building strength, but it's very frustrating and I understand it. But she also feels like she wasn't very informed prior to her first birth and that's part of the reason that she is where she is. Which yeah, she's probably the... I know you're not supposed to have favorite clients, but she's probably one of my favorites because we've been through so much together.
And she does continue to get stronger and she is really curious and wants to learn about her body. And I think that is the missing part sometimes because we are not educated enough to understand how our bodies work. And so then something happens and we just think it's normal or it's supposed to happen or there's nothing you can do about it. And she's never had that mindset, which I really love because there's a lot of people.
who had dismissed, like the lady I was speaking to you about on Monday, who has been back and forth between physios since a year ago when her son was born. And she's been telling the physios, both the women's health physio and the musculoskeletal physio, something doesn't feel right in my body. And the women's health physio says, no, you're fine. Go to the regular physio for your hip. And then she goes to the physio for her hip and no, no.
Ana (25:17.986)
do some lunges, you'll find no that causes pain. well, go back to the Women's Health Physio. do some Kegels, you'll be fine." And she's been basically bouncing back and forth, back and forth. And so then the one of the physios told her, just go and get a PT and strengthen your core and you'll be fine. And so she's come to the gym, she signed up at the gym and the way the gym I work at now works is that they partner each new member with a PT. So they need guidance. And so I met with her and we had a conversation and in the notes was
issues with pelvic floor wants to build a core. I said to her, so we sat down, I said, which is not normally how I started a conversation, but I said to her, the notes say that like you want to, like you have some pelvic floor issues, tell me about that. And it's like, this is the first time she's ever been asked that because then she just launches in and tells me basically a year's worth of history. And I just sat back and I was like, I'm so sorry that that is your experience. Like that is just not good enough. I said, and I asked a few more questions and I said to her, look, I don't mean to.
Jen Dugard (26:00.783)
you
Ana (26:16.914)
fear among you. I'm not trying to make you scared, but I do think that these are type, these are injuries that we can treat, not through PT, but through physio. And as I said, then we look at the physio first. And I said, I will refer you to my physio because I know she's very good. And then she can feed back to me what we need to work on. And then we can work in the gym to sort you out with where you want to go. But firstly, we need to see this year because what you're dealing with is not okay. And
She said to me, I'm sitting here right now and in pain. I'm always in pain. And I'm always, anytime I sit, I'm in pain. And so pain during intercourse, constantly bleeding, all of these things that I was like, we can fix this, but we just need to find the right support. And luckily for you, I know the right, like, advice. And she said to me, I feel so validated talking to you. I've never had, I feel so understood. Nobody has understood me so far.
And I was like, that's just not really good enough. And that's why I so angry. was like, we need better care for our moms. Like why has it been a year before she gets to have a conversation with someone who can point her in the right direction, basically.
Jen Dugard (27:26.614)
Yeah, there's so many things that stand out. one big thing is consistency of care because someone might say, well, she's seen physios, there's nothing wrong with her. And this is where that advocacy piece of women being able to stand up and say, yes, but you're not hearing me or no, you're not the right person. The other thing, so the consistency of care is huge. And how do we create consistency of care in allied health?
Ana (27:47.334)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Dugard (27:51.821)
because that is one. And why don't those physios and you know what, physios and pelvic health physios are our best friends, right? So it's always a very gentle conversation when you're calling out a physio to say you didn't do well enough. But I would have thought that every single, I mean, yes, they've sent them to a trainer in a gym because they've gone, well, I can't see what's wrong. Go and see a trainer. Had she not walked through the doors of your gym?
Ana (28:05.426)
it.
Jen Dugard (28:21.89)
Had your gym not known that you specialize in, and they probably did it before you landed in that gym, there was no vetting and sending to the right trainer. Had that person not fallen into your lap, she would now be trained either training in pain or she would be not training at all.
Ana (28:28.7)
No idea. No idea.
Jen Dugard (28:39.404)
because she would have exited the environment after one session and gone, well, I can't even sit down without having pain. How can I exercise without pain? She would have then had somebody else tell her that she was wrong and she shouldn't be in pain or these exercises will fix whatever's going on. So we backtrack to so many things and it's like, if I can't fix you as a trainer, I'm not the right trainer.
or I need somebody else on my team. So number one call out is where with both of those physios saying, you clearly need more support and I can't do it. Here's a colleague of mine or a mentor of mine or someone that I know is even more specialized than me in pelvic health that let's delve a little bit deeper because I'm clearly just not the right person.
Ana (29:23.706)
percent, hundred percent, so many layers. And I think you're exactly right, when I first went and spoke to this gym before I started working there, and I said to them, I specialize in working with women, but specifically moms, and I said, and the club manager said to me, that's a demographic we don't serve, it's very well, like we don't have anyone who specializes in that. And I didn't say it out loud, but I was like, well if they don't know Jen, they're probably not doing it very well. But
Jen Dugard (29:24.974)
There's so many layers to this.
Ana (29:50.29)
That yeah, so they were like, yeah, definitely there's a space for you But you know, I spoke to a couple of gyms and they also got to me and that that number one I think as fitness professionals, which I know you're working towards but we need to do better. We need to be better educated I think even if it's not taught in our set three and four it needs to be mentioned because like I said at the start it's a half a paragraph of Basically women complain when they get their period and catch a lay that's enough of that and to the point actually that
the male educator who taught me my self-turning for for that specific day, I said to them, I don't even know why I asked the question, but I said, what about when women have periods and things? Oh yeah, they're a bit whingy, but you they're, you're like, okay, no worries. And then in the next breath, he recommended Nadia Norman to me and I was like, and then I looked into Nadia, and it was only because he knew Nadia personally, like they'd
Jen Dugard (30:42.668)
Well that's good.
Ana (30:47.89)
work together or something and I looked up NADs and I was like you should know better if you know Nadia and what she does you should be teaching this better but anyway um but yeah I think um there needs to be better education but like more awareness around maybe further education because I think like a one-day course is not really enough either um but just knowing that you don't know it do you what mean like knowing that pre-infocenatal mums need that little bit extra you need to know more
to able to support them properly. I think.
I think as you said all the time, you don't know what you don't know, but find out. Like, like, I don't know, I just get really angry about it because now that I work in a gym, like a commercial gym full of trainers, and there's just this attitude in fitness that you just push harder and you'll be better. And I just, sometimes that's not the case. And you're right, if that lady on Monday had fallen into anyone else's lap, they probably would have started training her and done, I don't know, sit ups or whatever it they do for the core.
Whereas I'm saying, no, no, hang on. Please don't do anything more strenuous than picking up your baby and walking. Like, let's go see the physio. Let's work out what is causing your symptoms, which, you know, I can guess at, but I'm not a physio, so I'm not going to. And then let's work with the physio to build you back to a place where you can do basic things. Because she said to me, kegels hurt, cause pain, and lunges cause pain. But that's what I've been told to do. I was like... Exactly. And I'm constantly bleeding.
Jen Dugard (32:14.574)
constantly bleeding. you know, there's so many flags like endometriosis, is it hypotonic pelvic floor? Is it like, what are the, what are the correlations in the things? Absolutely.
Ana (32:22.834)
Yeah, what it said. Exactly. And so I said to her, no, no, please don't do any more lunges. And I said, please go and see the physio. And she booked like, I sent my referral to the physio and then it was like the next day she's like, oh, she's booked an appointment. I was like, perfect. But I was like, you need to go and seek the right support. And I was like, I will follow up with you in a couple of days to make sure that you're like, you've got an appointment and you're doing well. And I was like, and we'll work together on this. But
before you pay me any money basically, I didn't say this to her, but before you pay me any money I need you to be better supported by your physio or by a physio so that we can work together with the physio to build you back to a baseline strength basically. But I said to her, it's not fair that this is how you've been treated and then you're expected to look after a one-year-old. And she's like exactly and I was like, I was like we almost got in a little ranty ourselves together but it's like people don't get it because they're not mums, I don't know, or maybe mums who haven't had any issues.
And then needed the extra support don't understand as I also get on my little ranty high horse about When people say oh, it's a mums program designed by a mum. So, you know, I know everything No, you don't like unless you're qualified to work with mums You don't know everything because you're a mum because imagine if you had such a straightforward birth experience and motherhood experience and then you expect that everyone's birth and motherhood experiences like that or imagine me who had
describe as a traumatic birth experience and expect everyone to have that experience. That's not true. Everyone has their own individual experience and it goes from textbook perfect to absolute, I'm sorry, I'm just swearing, but like it's basically a spectrum of that. But you need to find out what the individual's woman's experience was and work for her, right? And I think that is the point that gets missed a lot.
Jen Dugard (34:11.2)
It does, it does. And no, and it's so much I agree with, like the trainer who is a mum that's had a baby that, to bounce back can be more, I'm gonna say dangerous than the dude that doesn't know much so he goes too easy, which also is not ideal because we definitely want to progressively overload and we don't want to wrap women in cotton wool, which when we know what we're talking about, we don't need to do that. I wanted to circle back to the...
acknowledgement of the education piece in our certs, threes and fours and it's all we need to do at that point is shift someone from...
not knowing what they don't know to knowing what they don't know. Like that's it really at that point. So simple, so simple. And it's funny because I have held on to this phrase you don't know what you don't know for many many years and now I'm getting to the point where I'm like
Ana (34:51.026)
100 %
Jen Dugard (35:03.256)
they fucking know what they don't know and they're choosing to not do anything about it. They know that they have been training moms for years with absolutely no qualifications and they've decided now, but because they've been a trainer for years and my wife's had a baby, I don't need any more education or because I've been a trainer for years and I've had a baby, I don't need to get educated in that. And this is like, at what point do we go, will you fucking do no better? And you're choosing not to do anything about it.
Ana (35:31.026)
Yeah, 100 % because training as a mum is so much more than managing sleep deprivation or you know, like being tired from being a mum because that's absolutely valid and you know, I have had mums come up and say I have had a rough night. I was like, we'll just take it easy. But that's totally different to training around or managing birth injury, for example, like they're completely, like they're all relevant, but they're separate kind of issues. And if you don't know about this one, then it's great that you are
catering to sleep deprivation, but what about a body? What is happening? And if you don't know, how can you help appropriately? yeah, I think it's very easy for me to get really angry about it because I just think we just need to do better. Yeah, that's what it comes down to.
Jen Dugard (36:13.91)
It is and we need to do better and it's frustrating that we're not doing better on so many levels because so many people now know that we need to do better. Yeah, yeah.
Ana (36:23.634)
100 % yeah 100 % and I think the amount of women as well that I've spoken to yeah I pee a bit but that's normal because I've had a baby. It's like the bread and butter is my cringe response but like you know that's not normal that's absolutely not normal and like I've had women I'm in my 60s now I've been peeing myself for 30 years ever since I had kids okay well we can still fix that like
Jen Dugard (36:43.695)
And now they're being told to strength train because they're in menopause and I was like do I even start this conversation because it's like...
Ana (36:48.082)
100%. I saw an ad the other day, for a menopause water bath. And I was like,
Jen Dugard (36:57.314)
A what? A menopause what?
Ana (36:59.376)
water fast to help lose stubborn belly fat during menopause it's a menopause water fast and i was like what the actual no no no no no what is what is what is happening what is happening
Jen Dugard (37:10.58)
my goodness. And it, yeah, and it's even the budget, the women's health budget that has zero dollars associated with...
Ana (37:18.021)
Thank
Jen Dugard (37:23.402)
anything pre-perimenopause. And I mean, yes, we've got endometriosis clinics and it's funny because I sit in this dichotomy of it's really fucking cool that we are allocating funds to women's health in any capacity. Yet I feel so angry that there is no money at all going into the preventative side and the recovery side of pregnancy and birth and it's all going.
down the road. Like they're spending something like 12 million dollars on a public health campaign for menopause and they're spending, I've got the pieces of paper somewhere, in fact I've got it here because I just came back from a meeting with my local MP, but 26 million dollars to implement a new health assessment for items for women experiencing menopause and perimenopause.
And then another 2.9 million to develop national clinical guidelines for perimenopause. And then another 1.5 million to increase awareness and access to available education and training for health professionals. Now that is really cool. Like all of it's really cool. There's $19 million going to endometriosis clinics. All really good. However, we're trying to drag these women out of a river at 55 when we could have stopped many of them, 77 % of the population jumping into that river in their 30s or 40s. So.
Ana (38:29.788)
is cool.
Ana (38:44.082)
Thank
Jen Dugard (38:45.378)
You know, the question that was asked of me today was, was, would you want to take some money away or do you want to get more money? And it's like, what a shit question because no, I don't want to take any money away from that. However, if we did at least allocate some of the money to some of the preventative, which I believe pre-imposed pregnancy and postpartum is both preventative and rehabilitation. That's not a word, you know what I mean? Rehabilitated. What is that word? I can't speak.
Ana (39:07.492)
Yes.
Jen Dugard (39:11.222)
It's, anyway, it's recovery, because is it really rehabilitation? I don't know.
Ana (39:11.603)
Yeah, I know. Yes.
Jen Dugard (39:18.956)
We could not necessarily, and I'm gonna say we could not necessarily need to spend that amount of money. We're always gonna need to spend that amount of money because it's missing money. It needs to go there. But we've gotta be sending some money on shit that doesn't need to be spent on or we need to allocate.
$443 million for the listing of more medicines on the PBS, which is all contraceptive, which again, yes, very important. However...
Ana (39:41.713)
CBS.
Ana (39:48.402)
Yeah, 100%. I have this conversation, I think it's relevant here, because I'm starting to be a naturopath. And I have a lot of conversations with people who think that I'm anti Western medicine. And I say, no, no, no, I'm not anti Western medicine at all. think basically my child and I would have died in childbirth if we didn't have Western medicine. So absolutely not anti in any case. But Western medicine is very reactive, whereas naturopaths
trauma as much as I'm studying is very proactive or preventative right and I think this is the same here is that we need preventative and reactive to work together in all senses of it and I think things like like from a fitness perspective like exercising eating healthy and you know being healthy is proactive and then birth trauma recovery is reactive right but we need to have both and so like prenatal education of both health professionals
fitness professionals and mums, like women in general, and the ability to support women post-birth in whatever capacity they need, both need to be part of the equation, right? And I think this whole one or the other, or like, you know, like you say, dragging them out of the river at 55, if we had supported them prenatally potentially. And that goes from like, like right at the start, before they even have babies, like why isn't a part of the conversation?
Why do we not talk about any of this with our young women? And I've been working at a local school out here actually, and they wanted strength and conditioning. But of course me with my women's health hat on. I'm teaching the girls that you're 14 and you've got four more years until you reach 90 % of your peak bone density. And then by 30, you've got 100 % peak bone density. So you don't start taking your strength training seriously now. And they're all elite athletes, which is why I'm talking about it.
If you don't start thinking it seriously now, by the time you get to 80, you're the woman who's falling over breaking her hip and has a 70 % chance more, more chance of dying from broken, like being, having a broken hip because you didn't do anything about it in the 70 years prior. And one of the girls was like, Oh, my nanny has fallen over and broken hip. I was like, I'm not trying to scare you. I'm trying to encourage you to do something about your health now. But I think every stage of life needs to have that kind of attention. We need to have the awareness around it, education around it, and then be doing something about
Jen Dugard (42:01.423)
Thank you.
Hmm.
Ana (42:07.994)
I think in terms of funding, yeah, you're It's great that they're funding certain things, but it needs to be maybe more broadly shared maybe is the word.
Jen Dugard (42:17.378)
There's got to be money going into some shit that we don't need money to go into, right? Has to be, has to be. Hey Anna, we can continue down this conversation for a really long time. What I'd really love to cover is you as a trainer and as a Mumsafe trainer, you started, you were working inside a...
Ana (42:20.722)
Yeah, 100 % 100 % has to be.
Ana (42:27.885)
We really could.
Jen Dugard (42:37.036)
gym and a studio. So that in its own sense, we get questions all the time. It's like, well, I don't run my own business. Can I still be a mum safe trainer? It's like, well, yes, you can. But then what you've managed to do is build up your credibility, build up your profile, I guess, step into this environment where you can step out of an environment and then build your business. And then you've built it relatively quickly. And it was only a few weeks ago that you were like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't even have a logo. I'm like, dude, you do know what you're doing. Let's just do it.
But tell us a little bit first about the working in somebody else's brand and becoming known as that go-to trainer for moms and then making the brave decision to step outside of that and now you're running classes that you started by accident. It's good.
Ana (43:26.546)
Yeah, basically. So yeah, like I said, I was training at this studio when she encouraged me to do my PT course and I thought that was a wild idea, but I did it anyway. And then I think because I already had a good report from training with these people that when I stepped into the coach role, it was very easy for me to build on that report. Obviously from a professional like aspect, but because I already had the relationship, it was quite easy for me. And then
because I was a foundation member of that gym so when they first started I became a member. Building relationships was quite easy because I was part of the community already so then I became a coach and you everyone was very accepting which was lovely because they already knew me and then like I said I took that six months off to have my baby and came back jumped and was like what the fuck and then so started educating myself and I did your safe return to exercise and then Nadia's female health and performance pretty much at the same time I think it was the same month even.
And so then I became the trainer in the gym who everyone was already happy to talk about. But then I was talking about things that nobody wanted to talk about, including periods and, you know, peeing yourself when you exercise and all these things that nobody wanted to have a conversation about, but a lot of them were dealing with. And I very, very quickly became the PT who talks about periods. Like I was the period lady in the gym and which was great because
everything that had learned I was like people need to know this like why are people suffering with things and like basically wandering around blind about things that we could educate them about so then I started to do seminars for the members about everything menstrual cycles pre-impress like just anything that I'm perimenopause anything that I knew about I started educating about obviously you can tell I love to talk so I love a chat and I yeah started doing these seminars
And then that kind of built up, um, just in the membership. And then we started advertising outside of the membership and we'd have people from the public coming, which is so fun. And because I just love to have conversations about these things, um, it just kind of built from there. And then I started having people seek me out. I was on obviously always advertising like through local, you know, community boards or whatever for PT clients. But then because of what I was specializing in, I kind of became known around the local.
Ana (45:47.57)
community boards, especially on Facebook, and people would recommend me, which is beautiful, for this specific like women's health training. And especially postnatal and perimenopause, which was great. So I kind of built my reputation around that. And then anytime someone would come into the gym, they would mention something that you need to talk to Anna about that. I was like, hello, here I am, which was great. And then I started to branch out.
I don't even know what I first did, but then I started talking at this mom's group that I said, I talked to one before that. And then I started talking at this one and it was once a term. So they run three days of groups and it was once one day a term that I was talking to them. And I always, I'm not a very good sales person, if I'm honest. And so I would always go in and just all of the education and they'd say, how do we work with you? was like, oh, yep, that too. Yep. You can come and do that. Um, and then I said, yeah, did my,
the term thing, which was really popular. And then I started to get people I shared on my personal Facebook and I had like my friend from we were best friends when we ate and she was like, Can I come and do your thing? And I was like, Yeah, absolutely. And then just people kind of heard about it and came in, they're talking to their friends about it and word of mouth was huge. And I think working in a small studio like that, it really encouraged people because it wasn't a big commercial gym. So a lot of people who are having issues, and they couldn't find anyone to help them. But then there was me.
talking about all these things that nobody wants to talk about in this small little studio gym, everyone's like, this is the place to be, which is beautiful. And then, so I kind of built my reputation. Basically, I didn't talk anything women's health. And, then I did that for a lot, like five years I did that for, and because I basically became educated and started specializing so new into my career, it just was the only thing that I really
did. And then, yeah, I think I had talked to everybody in that gym until I was blue in the face about all the things and they all knew about their pelvic floors and they all knew about everything. I became Pilates qualified and I corrected the Pilates instructor who was qualifying us about about pelvic floors because she was like, yep, I kind of what she said now. And I was like, that's wrong. And she's like, I said 50 % of people will bear down instead of drawing up and she's like, yeah, okay, you're not wrong. I was like, I know I'm wrong.
Jen Dugard (48:02.83)
I love that.
Ana (48:14.098)
I was like, don't teach this, you're gonna teach it wrong. So I just, I think I found my voice in that and I wasn't scared about being quite vocal about it I think that's what attracted people. And then, yeah, I decided that I just wanted a big opportunity to talk to more people and that was so scary because I had worked in this studio from the get-go of my career. So five and a half years I worked there and...
everyone knew me, I knew everyone, it was like a big family, which is kind of what happens when you work in or are in one of those little studio gyms. But I feel like I had spoken to everyone and everyone knew everything that I knew and I was like, time to find some new people to speak to. So even though it probably one of the scariest decisions, probably my marriage that I've ever made in my life. Yeah, I went and talked to a few new gyms and like I said, there was a couple that I spoke to and they were like, yeah, nobody here talks to that kind of demographic like you'll
basically make a killing because that's all they care about is that you make money and pay them the rent. And I was like, yeah, cool. What I want to know is how many people you've got that I can talk to so that I can spread the message. And so then I landed where I am now. And yeah, so far, it blows people's minds about the things that I talk about. the one the clients or the members that I speak to are just like, yes, like we need to know I need to know more about this. I need support with this. Or I've dealt with that for so long, and nobody's ever mentioned that we could change it or
And so I feel like it's really re almost reignited the passion for it for me, because now I have this whole new audience to speak to about it. and then yeah, the, in the park thing happened because like I said, I talked about the mother's group and I just kind of mentioned it and they're like, yeah, let's do that. And I think the reason it works is because I'm trying to educate women, but in a way that is easily digestible. I'm not trying to confuse them. I'm just giving them the basic knowledge and then.
allowing them to know that there's support and then it just like I said more people than we realize want that support but they just don't know that it's there. So it's been really organic almost especially the part thing but just because I am so passionate about what I love and I'm happy to talk about it and it just seems to attract the people who didn't even realize it was allowed to be a topic of conversation I guess.
Jen Dugard (50:26.228)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (50:35.094)
I love that. How are you finding the business aspect of it?
Ana (50:40.21)
Honestly, part of me thinks this should be more difficult, but I do before I even became a personal trainer, have a history of business. So I have a business degree and I worked in small business for 15 years. I run my own import export business with my family. And then I also worked with my dad's small business as his administration manager. So was him and I basically running the business. He did all of the technical side and I did all of the admin side.
So it's kind of like a second nature to me, guess, to even think like, talking about business stuff does not freak me out in any way because I'm so used to it. So I feel like all of the things I'm doing, I kind of have to remind myself, you know what you're doing, like you've done it before. And it's only scary because it's, I guess I'm the only one, like the buck stops with me, I guess. And I think that's been the more difficult part for me.
is that I just have to implement the knowledge that I have and I feel like I have to blend my business knowledge and my fitness knowledge together and it's not that difficult really because that's how my brain works but it's having the confidence to back myself in doing the things. So I almost didn't do the part of thing in Term 3 because I was like is that really what I want to do and then yeah when they had 24 of them I was like oh hell I better do something because now I've put it out there and all these women are like yes and so okay and then
I didn't know if we'd do another one. was like, maybe I'll just, I just suggest it's the mom group again and see if like the new lot of moms take it up. But I haven't even spoken to them yet. That's not for another two weeks. And I've already filled half my spots because the moms who did it before, half of them want to continue, more than half actually, but want to continue. And then I put on my Instagram stories and all these people that I know who I've basically built my following over the years. Like, hang on, what am I missing out on? Can I be part of that too? And I'll, yeah, okay, no worries.
And then now I'm like, do I have any spots left for the mum's group? And I talked to him in two weeks and I think, yes, I know what to do, but it's the confidence to do it. And I think that's been the biggest hurdle for me.
Jen Dugard (52:47.928)
So then how are you overcoming the confidence pace?
Ana (52:53.618)
Honestly, I don't know that I am, but I just, like I said, I love to have a chat and I love to help people. And I think I've had to get about myself and focus on what is the purpose of what I do. And the purpose is to help as many moms as I physically can get the support they need. And often, more often than not, I'm kind of the bridge from where they're at to where they want to be, whether that is...
me referring them to the physio or me giving them some guidance or exercise or me inviting them to the park so we can have a chat about how difficult it is to not sleep and also how to activate our pelvic floors. And so I've just kind of more focused on that like what is the, why am I doing this? And it's to help mums. And it frustrates me as we've discussed how little support there is for mums and I just don't want it to be difficult for mums to be able to find the right support.
postpartum I think like my own experience like I wish I had and my PT at the time she was beautiful but she had no idea she hadn't had a baby she'd never had any postnatal training she didn't really know she was googling things while we were pregnant while I was pregnant to figure out what we could do what we couldn't do which at the time that's the best we could do we had no idea and but now that I know better I don't want anyone to have that experience like you should have to Google things or chat GPT things to know you know like when it just has to be a conversation
Jen Dugard (54:17.985)
Well, not if you're trainers.
Like if you, the woman, are Googling something because you don't know, but if you're paying someone for a service and then they are Googling because, although having said that, I'm sure everyone's sat in a GP's office when they've Googled symptoms before because they don't just know. So I don't know, who knows? But I do think we could definitely, do a lot better.
Ana (54:35.418)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ana (54:42.845)
100%. Yeah. And I think I said to on my Instagram stories yesterday, every woman that I help is just another woman that is potentially moving towards like a happier, healthier, pain-free, whatever it is life. And I think that's how I look at it is one woman at a time. And yeah, I think when I focus on the purpose of what I'm doing, I forget about myself and any confidence issues that I may or may not have.
Jen Dugard (54:53.452)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (55:04.099)
Mm.
Yeah, and you've only got to hop in the Bumso Facebook page if you're ever in doubt and get all these people just like, you can do that, you can do that. And if you could, if this is a big question for you, if you could leave one, I guess legacy piece or one, ignite one change, what would it be?
Ana (55:10.898)
100%. 100%. Yes.
Ana (55:32.292)
I it would be body autonomy and self-advocacy, but basically...
women or people in general, but women specifically knowing that they are able to and need to advocate for themselves and I think that is the biggest problem. even this, yeah, mum on Monday, like she knows that there's something not right with her body but she has so far been dismissed and good on her for keep, like keep going basically. She's kept going to find support.
even though even if it kind of she didn't realize that's what she was going to get when she came to me. being able to say no, something's not right, like no, I need more support. And I think speaking up for ourselves. My dad was such a big advocate for us using our voices and speaking up for ourselves and being independent. And that's what I'm trying to teach my daughter is to speak up, use her words and she's only little, but I think being able to have a conversation is
bit of an art these days. But I think being able to articulate something that means something to you about your body and health is something that sometimes women don't do because it's too difficult, they don't know where to go or they don't know if they're gonna be heard. And I think yeah, self-advocacy and like body autonomy, understanding that you are the one that has to fund. It needs to be better available, but you are the one.
needs to be able to say no look this is what is happening to me and this is what I need and I think it's yeah that's a little bit not as supportive as it could be but I think that's I want. That's why I try and teach all of my clients is keep keep keep going until you feel like you have the support that you need but it has to come from you because I can't tell you what you need I'm not here to read your mind but you need to be able to do that for yourself.
Jen Dugard (57:26.231)
Hmm.
Ana (57:42.066)
I that's the biggest thing that I told them about. I don't know if that made sense, was a little bit of a waffle.
Jen Dugard (57:42.478)
Hmm.
What an awesome takeaway. It makes complete sense, absolute complete sense. And if you can leave that one stamp on the world in that every person that comes into contact with you finds a little bit more confidence in advocating for themselves, then you've done what you set out to do. And it's been such a awesome journey to work with you over the years and to watch where you've come from and see you thrive in a studio environment and then...
Ana (57:59.6)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (58:12.448)
make that brave next step into what you're doing now. And I think I said it to you when you came on, when we first came on the screen, you look brighter, you look fresher, you look more relaxed. And the fact that you've got that purpose now behind you as well, not that you didn't beforehand, but the purpose with the passion, with the energy. I cannot wait to see what you do next.
Ana (58:33.138)
Thank you. Honestly, Jen, think I'm big believer in mentors, but I think if I hadn't found you when I did, it wouldn't have been possible because I think you are so good at seeing beyond what feels like the reality. think you've said to me since I've known you, when you worked for yourself, I was like, it's not gonna happen, Jen, it's not gonna happen. But I think you are really good at seeing people's potential. And I think if I hadn't, even though it took me a long time.
I think if I didn't have, because nobody else in my life had that belief, I think, me. And if I didn't jump on them, I'm safe, call them every now and then, and you're like, you're not going to, and I'm like, no. But I think that's like, it felt like I had a place to lean into when I decided to make the change. And I think that was probably more powerful than I would have anticipated. So thank you.
Jen Dugard (59:13.486)
Hahaha
Jen Dugard (59:27.694)
Thank you for choosing to put yourself there, but I cannot wait, cannot wait to see your trajectory. I know it's going to be absolutely amazing. Thank you for taking time out of your Friday to hang with us and share your story because I think that when we, well, we share from the birth experience to the business experience to the, you know, self belief and all the rest of it, if the more of us that speak about the reality of what's going on, the more change that we get to make across absolutely everywhere. Thank you so much.
Ana (59:36.562)
All right.
Ana (59:56.338)
Absolutely. Thank you. Yes.
Jen Dugard (59:57.632)
I will chat to you soon. Bye!
