Jen Dugard (00:01.117)
Danny, welcome to the Mumsafe Pro podcast. How are you going?
Dani Antonellos (00:04.652)
Good. Thanks, Jen. It's so good to connect again. I feel like we've really gotten to know each other the past couple of years. It's great.
Jen Dugard (00:11.163)
We have, but it's been those little snippets, right? So I feel like this conversation is my opportunity to definitely get to know you more. So I'm very excited about that. Awesome. Let's dive in. Share with us a word that shares how you're showing up today. Something that you're winning at and then something that you're working on.
Dani Antonellos (00:14.819)
Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (00:20.268)
No, thanks for having me.
Dani Antonellos (00:29.972)
Okay. Now I don't think this word is very original, original, naturally I am excited. But every time I get to do a talk, whether it's on a podcast or on the stage, I get that energy and I never want to call it nerves. It's like, Ooh, I've got some excitement and some energy and I'm ready to go. So never really need a coffee before these things.
Jen Dugard (00:50.619)
that and I like I very I traditionally get very nervous before I go and speak and I did this year that I'm gonna say the biggest presentation that I've done in a outside of industry so I spoke at the Women's Agenda Summit and I was the very last person on the day and I had to really consciously every time I thought I was being nervous I was like I'm excited and just really change my language to myself so that I could get on the stage and not just be a
Dani Antonellos (01:04.874)
Amazing.
Dani Antonellos (01:12.279)
Yes.
Jen Dugard (01:17.713)
dithering mess by the end of the day. So I really like that reframe. Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (01:19.806)
Exactly. Cause it feels the same in your body, you know, the increased heart rate, you might be a little bit jittery or however, you know, shows up in you, but excitement and nerves generally feels the same. It's just the narrative in your head that's different and what you tell yourself. So yes, I'm excited. that's a good one. You can coin that. Yeah, true. and. Ooh.
Jen Dugard (01:24.39)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (01:34.205)
Absolutely. Nervous, nervous-cited is a good word. It's good for kids. yeah. What are you winning at?
Dani Antonellos (01:47.086)
The next one, the biggest win recently, I think I really enjoyed talking with you at the fitness expo on the stage. Like it's not, that was my second time. Um, and grateful that it was you hosting it twice because there's a little bit of consistency there. I'm like, Oh, know Jen, she's great. Uh, so that was a big win for me just because it was so different. And then, uh, being getting to be on a panel with people that I hold in such high regard, adds that little element of, whoops.
Jen Dugard (02:07.933)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (02:14.36)
You got to show up here now, Danny. So I was very proud of both of us in a sense for that. It was a big deal for me.
Jen Dugard (02:21.595)
Yeah, absolutely. It is great when you find yourself sitting next to people in the industry that you respect or finding yourself at that level, I think as well, which is really good.
Dani Antonellos (02:28.898)
Yes.
Dani Antonellos (02:33.07)
Absolutely. It's a, you just, pinch myself sometimes and go, yep, okay. The opportunity is here for a reason. Just give it your best and, try and entertain the people listening. Oh, of course. The biggest projects that I'm working on at the moment is in the online space and a lot of the online, uh, coaches or even yourself will realize that online work is big. It's never ending. Uh, but we're going through a whole revamp of.
Jen Dugard (02:40.923)
Yep. Amazing. I think we did that. We definitely entertained. And what are you working on?
Jen Dugard (02:59.665)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (03:03.01)
the United Health Education website, just to make it really more streamlined and easy for people to differentiate which products are right for them, because I love creating and I can create a program every day, but it gets to the point where it's like, okay, don't create too many options. Let's just streamline it. Are you talking to someone who has pain or who wants a training program? Are you talking to a coach or personal trainer?
or an allied health professional. they're three completely different audiences. So now we're sort of sitting back and realizing, okay, let's just make it really easy for someone to log on and say, this is me and this product's for me. So it's a big overhaul though with tech and you you have to hire the right person. So it's fun, but it's a big project.
Jen Dugard (03:44.88)
Mmm.
Jen Dugard (03:51.973)
I can relate to that. So you've got all of those three different client avatars coming to the same website, trying to find their way forward. we definitely used to have that with MumSafe. So the website was talking to trainers and talking to mums. And now we talk to mums and then there's a little become a MumSafe trainer tab and then they go off in a different direction. So I look forward to seeing how you navigate that. What are the initial ideas? Is it a button to say, I'm a this person, I'm a that person, I'm the other person?
Dani Antonellos (03:58.71)
Yes. Yeah, exactly.
Dani Antonellos (04:16.92)
Thank you.
Dani Antonellos (04:20.97)
Exactly right. But it was just the hardest part to find the right web developer that you can trust. Because you it can, can be taken on a ride with that stuff, particularly if you're overly trusting and it's really not one of your skills. I mean, I'm pretty good at computers and technology, but like to build a website that, that works well. It's, it was difficult for me to find the right person. So we did. And then now we're just going full steam ahead into that. Thank you.
Jen Dugard (04:22.045)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (04:48.625)
Amazing. Awesome. Awesome. Daddy, the listeners have heard a little bit of an intro around what you do, but what I would love is for you to kind of share, you know, how did you get into the industry? What led you to what you're doing now? And you're, you know, you're crossing a few different, you know, you're coaching people, you're an osteopath, you've got the gym, you've got your podcast, and you've been a bikini athlete amongst all of that. Share with us, yeah, how you got into the industry and how you got to where you are today.
Dani Antonellos (05:18.784)
It's, it's never a straightforward path in my world because I love just trying new things and just following what feels right. But then I was always okay with the idea of pivoting and creating and thinking outside the box. So yes, it seems like I am doing a lot of different things, but they all overlap and they all come back to teaching people how to move, how to better their life.
but it definitely wasn't as simple as me finishing school and saying, this is what I want to do. I was very much finishing school, having absolutely no idea, knowing that I knew that I enjoyed learning a little bit about health. I enjoyed science. And then luckily for me, there was a degree health sciences. So that sounded appealing. And to that, that was a three year degree. It was okay, but upon, you know,
Jen Dugard (06:07.357)
You
Dani Antonellos (06:16.43)
graduating, I wasn't really qualified for anything, to be honest, because it just wasn't specific. So lucky for me, in a sense, I also did my personal training certificate while doing the health sciences because yes, the PT cert got you qualified to be a personal trainer, but then I still had a little bit of extra knowledge on nutrition, exercise science, biomechanics and things like that. But
I was a little bit disappointed overall that, you know, three years didn't really get me anything more than being a personal trainer. So then it was at a Christmas lunch and I was telling my story to my cousin. Okay, I've just graduated, but like, what am I doing? And then they said, well, why don't you become an osteopath? And I said, what the hell is that? I didn't know. And for those who don't know,
Osteopaths treat the body holistically. know a lot of people get mixed up. The word osteo means bone, right? So they think, you only work with bones, but that's more a chiropractor. Where osteopathy is really hands-on manual therapy, know, manipulating the body in certain ways to get a change to reduce pain. It involves cracking, dry needling, massaging, stretching, things like that. All hands-on.
So that was cool. That was five years, but then halfway through that degree, I sort of recognized, okay, I still love teaching people how to move through my personal training and exercise science. This degree is meant to also get people feeling better, but it's only hands on. They are completely opposite worlds, totally opposite worlds. And I thought it just doesn't feel right. There has to be something in between. So
Jen Dugard (07:51.421)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (08:06.492)
Hmm.
Dani Antonellos (08:10.484)
finished my osteopathy degree. That was five years and then continued training people, grew an online business in the meantime. And then after graduating, really just was sort of moving blindly in a sense to find that middle ground and started experimenting with some hands-on treatment, but then also taking them into the gym where appropriate. So when one of the clinics I worked at also had like a gym.
attachment there. So I would experiment a little bit around that. And then it wasn't until I met my mentor and business partner, who's no longer with us, unfortunately, Dr. Andrew Locke, he was the total avatar of the business model that I was trying to do. He was a physiotherapist who did not touch his patients anymore, no hands on work. was all injury rehab through exercise. And I thought,
This is exactly what I've been trying to put together. Um, so got to know him. He took me under his wing. This was in 2019. And then I just sort of took that information, all the bits and pieces going on in my brain and then just created what I do now, which is now I model that very much. So injury rehab through exercise.
Jen Dugard (09:27.525)
love that and I'm glad that you explained what an osteo does because that was my next question. think personal trainers like I guess you know at the end of the day that's my background it's like we've got physios which we kind of get and then we've got chiro's which we feel like they just crack people and then what are osteo's do and then what exercise physiologists do like how do those people fit into but I think one of the biggest things I like Danny is the one of the reasons I often struggle to
Dani Antonellos (09:31.756)
Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (09:44.534)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (09:54.53)
send people to, whether it's osteos or chiros or even some physios, was it always felt like that dependence based care. It was, this is how I'm going to manually treat you and you need to keep coming back to me week after week after week. But there's no way of you looking after yourself or if you stop coming back, then you're going to go backwards. You want to talk to that a little bit and you know, you've already spoken to it in the exercise and movement and having people look after themselves, but let's dig a little bit deeper in that and how you really
or if you do believe on non-dependence based care, which I kind of feel like you do, but I don't want to put words into your mouth. Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (10:28.394)
No, you're spot on with that saying that because traditionally, yeah, osteopathy was only hands on. So I have some people message me online and say, I really want to do what you do, which I find it awesome. And then I said, okay, great, but don't become an osteopath because everything that I'm doing regarding exercise was not learned in our degree. So we have our titles, which, you know, come from what the coursework that we learn at university and you're already named, you know,
Jen Dugard (10:35.003)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (10:58.182)
Cairo physio osteo. got my therapist, exercise physiologists, everything. but I think it's really now up to the individual as in up to the allied health professional to find a way to practice in which they enjoy because a lot of those hands on models are reliance models. And I did that for a year, just hands on gave up the PT for a bit, gave up the online for a bit and thought, no.
Come on, you've just spent five years doing this. At least give it your best shot. And it was fantastic. It was fun. but my clients just kept coming back a lot of the time with the same injuries and it just didn't feel right. There's definitely a time and a place for manual therapy. there's so many positives. However, just for me personally with already having a lot of knowledge about how to teach people.
how to move in the gym, I just felt like there was a missing puzzle piece, which was actually teaching the client how to move themselves without relying on a weekly appointment from a practitioner, because then they feel in charge of their body. They actually understand what's happening and how to fix it. And then for mental health as well, and for cost. mean, it all adds up seeing a practitioner every week. it just felt really nice.
for me personally, and it's probably not the best quote unquote business model to see someone once then send them away because they're already better. However, referral, you can actually charge more because you're doing a better job. And yeah, I've just really enjoyed allowing my patient to walk away feeling empowered, feeling in charge of their own wellbeing. It's just fantastic.
Jen Dugard (12:50.781)
And what let's put it into the context of you know, if you had a mum walk into your environment number one, what what are you seeing mums come in with and then how are you supporting them to kind of move forward and have that autonomy to own their own journey?
Dani Antonellos (13:08.77)
Yeah, are we talking new mums or what are we?
Jen Dugard (13:10.875)
You can go wherever you like because know postpartum is forever. So you pick the avatar. What do you see? Are you seeing are you seeing mums further down the road that have not had the right care and then now they're coming back or are you seeing brand new mums? You could go either way or both.
Dani Antonellos (13:13.868)
Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (13:24.14)
Yeah, mean, back pain is massive and hip pain, sacroiliac joint pain. So anything around the back hip pelvic floor region, I see it more prevalent in people who haven't spent, you know, pre-pregnancy or even pregnancy in the gym. They are a lot more untrained naturally. So then a lot of the cases pregnancy does can have a little bit more impact on those joints just because you don't have strength in your glutes. You haven't really
Jen Dugard (13:27.122)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (13:41.746)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (13:53.113)
done core work before. So I definitely see a lot of hip back pain, even from breastfeeding, know, upper back, shoulders, carrying your kids when they get older and a little bit heavier, they're running and jumping around and trying to pick them up. yeah, moms go through a lot and it is important to give them the right care because they're also limited in time. So a mom, a new mom,
probably wouldn't be able to see you every week. And maybe they do only have 20 minutes just to quickly get something out amongst going back into the craziness. So yeah, I do see a lot of moms and I'm not a mom yet, but I take my hat off to anyone who's gone through that journey. It's, yeah, they go through a lot.
Jen Dugard (14:37.725)
With a mom who had like SIJ pain, do you have go-to stretches, go-to exercises, like where would you start with her?
Dani Antonellos (14:47.468)
Yeah, really good question. So I haven't actually prescribed a stretch in years and that's yeah. Yeah. often when we have muscles that feel really tight and we need to, and look, time and a place for everything, but this is, I'm going to back it up with a reason. So I'm talking long-term here. We often get tight muscles either to protect a joint that's irritated. So let's just say a hip joint and let's.
Jen Dugard (14:52.093)
Okay, ah, there we go.
Dani Antonellos (15:17.344)
If we're talking about the hip, the hip flexors often become tight. It's often the flexor muscles that guard. So tight hip flexors, and we've all seen a hip flexor stretch, know, standing on one leg, pulling your heel towards the back of you, stretching out that tight muscle. Now that might feel good short term. However, it doesn't actually address the reason why the hip flexor is tight and overworking in the first place. Same with upper traps or chest.
why are those muscles overcompensating? So as an osteopath, what it actually taught me was to look away from the side of pain to other joints that are around and even look for weaker structures. And then we target those weak muscles and say, hmm, I'm going to work on strengthening you. So with a lot of mums, it is glutes because we sit down a lot, whether you're mum or not, you know, we all sit down a lot more.
in this day and age, computers, driving, know, watching TV that puts the glutes on stretch. We're not really using the glutes that much in that position. They become weak because they're untrained. And then normally the lower back has to do extra work or, again, the hip flexors have to do extra work to help stabilize the pelvis. to go back to your question, I always give some kind of glute work. You really, I've never really met someone.
who did too much glute work, like at all. Not if they did it well. You can get a lot of bikini competitors who wanted to grow glutes but then end up with a sore back, but that's because they were doing too much. The movement wasn't 100%. But glute work and then some kind of core work. So depending on how soon you've had your child and things like that and what your current history was, you know, we give some kind of plank or bird dog side plank, but glutes and core generally.
Jen Dugard (16:44.625)
Hmm.
Dani Antonellos (17:12.534)
what I find weak in most mums, but then most people with back and hip pain.
Jen Dugard (17:16.893)
Yeah, and I think we do talk about stretching and it's interesting for me to challenge my thought process because we talk about stretching the hip flexor and strengthening the glute at the same time. whether that, yeah, if they were going to do one or the other, maybe it's the strengthening that they do as opposed to the stretching. I don't know, because some trainers I feel like would go, well, if the hip flexors aren't stretched, well, then you can't activate the glutes. What do think about that?
Dani Antonellos (17:26.562)
Great. That's okay.
Dani Antonellos (17:40.559)
yes. And these are all, this is all what I grew up hearing and you can totally understand why. And I'm not here to scare anyone. And, cause again, you just have to have a reason to give the thing to the person. If you can back that up, that's awesome. if we're talking bang for your buck, I would, and if I just had to pick one, cause it's good that you do both together. That's awesome. But if I had to pick one, it would actually be the glute strengthening.
Jen Dugard (17:44.581)
Yeah!
Jen Dugard (17:52.615)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (18:03.131)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (18:07.584)
over the hip flexor, but then find an exercise or a position where your client can activate the glute because guaranteed there will be one. You just have to spend that time pulling out exercises from your toolkit until you find one that suits your client. So you definitely can activate your glute while having a high, tight hip flexor. It can actually help inhibit the hip flexor when you strengthen the glute, because if we strengthen one muscle,
it can inhibit the opposing muscle. Yeah, without getting too deep into the science, but.
Jen Dugard (18:38.577)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (18:43.077)
No, yeah, and then I guess if one is tight, then it's also inhibiting the other muscles. So that's what we're, yeah, what you're trying to do. Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (18:49.26)
Yeah, exactly. But a stretch, there is a time and a place for stretching. mean, if you have someone who's quite busy, highly wound, the mind is racing a million miles an hour. If you get into the gym and just want to go through a few stretches or some yoga poses just to get the nervous system calm and, you know, focus on your breathing and set your intention for your training session, then that's awesome. But I've seen
Jen Dugard (19:11.845)
Hmm.
Dani Antonellos (19:15.51)
We've all seen it all. The longer you're in the industry, you see a lot of scenarios and I would get patients come to me saying, know, I'm stretching for 30 or 40 minutes a day, but I feel the same. And I'm like, well, you've just wasted 30 or 40 minutes a day. Like there's, yeah, you can just get a better result by doing less. So I'm really speaking to those people as well who just spend hours doing it with no return.
Jen Dugard (19:39.176)
think it's a really good person to speak to, right? Because it's the mum and a lot of our trainers that are listening are mums. And I think it's something you learn as you get older as well. I know when I'm training in the gym, you've got younger, I train in a CrossFit gym, which is a key breeding house for people to over train. And when you're just like, well, I'm only training three days a week and I'm doing ASYNZ and people are like, how are you still managing to maintain? And it's because...
Dani Antonellos (19:44.749)
Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (19:56.384)
Yes.
You
Jen Dugard (20:04.699)
you don't necessarily need all of that load that you think more is not necessarily better.
Dani Antonellos (20:09.886)
I get a lot across fitters seeing me. They're passionate people, good on them, go getters, abuse injury and just doing big movements really quickly can lead to some kind of injury, but it's the hardest to try and get people to slow down when they're so used to doing a lot. I actually find it easier to get someone who's doing no exercise to do a little bit than the opposite.
Jen Dugard (20:12.049)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (20:18.203)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (20:29.042)
Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (20:35.63)
part of the spectrum where they're doing a lot of exercise to get them to gently pull back and then promising them that they'll be able to return to CrossFit. But it's really, there's a lot of psychology in it too. It's not just about what a research paper said or you know, what the latest Instagram trend is. You have to look at the person in front of you, not only their physical health, but their mental health as well. And then that's how you choose exercise prescription and amounts and what's best for them, I feel.
Jen Dugard (20:43.942)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (21:04.197)
Yeah, I think you're right. we talk about, if we were talking about someone that was presenting to you with, or they were experiencing pain in training, when do we modify? So versus when we pause versus when we refer. So I guess, you you train a lot of trainers and you are a trainer. So if we answer this question from a trainer perspective with all of the knowledge that you have.
Dani Antonellos (21:27.832)
think the only time I would ever tell someone to change or stop or pause is if their action is causing the pain, but it doesn't mean, so stop doing the thing that's aggravating you to really. And then we have to reassess and say, well, why is a deadlift pattern hurting your back? It's not the deadlift itself. Maybe you're just not ready to do barbell deadlifts yet because you haven't done your glute core work. You haven't done your muscle activations.
to build the foundation to then go to earn the right to use a barbell. So, okay, it doesn't mean we scrap the deadly hip hinge pattern altogether. Let's find an alternative, maybe using a kettlebell or elevating the weight so you don't have to bend down as far. So it's really about assessing and finding the reason why does this hurt? And it's not always in the gym. It could be in everyday life as well, putting kids in cots.
bending forward. I've had a lot of moms, I even had a mom who was told, well, you just can't put the kid in the cot. And it's like, she was a single mom. And it's like, well, that, that really just blew my mind. Like, I'm like, what, excuse me? so yeah, well, let's get stronger in that position without making it, you know, we don't have to go full on in the gym, but it's still a movement that we have to practice because otherwise you won't be able to put your kid in the cot. So
putting them on that spectrum of are they beginner beginner or intermediate or are they advanced? So we never pull exercises away. It's just about making them easier if we need to.
Jen Dugard (23:05.757)
It's wild isn't it sometimes the idyllic situation that some therapists think that people can respond to so that just don't do it. It's like okay cool. It's like mums with prolapse like don't lift anything over a certain amount of kilos well I've got a baby that weighs 15 kilos plus a pram plus the shopping what would you like me to do exactly like rather than create a strategy yeah yeah
Dani Antonellos (23:16.13)
Yeah, that's where the problem is.
Dani Antonellos (23:26.946)
Yeah. It's always the five kilo. Yeah, you're right. It's like after every, there's just some blanket statements, kind of like the 1200 calorie thing that was going around. It's like the same with lifting. Okay. Well, you can't lift over five kilos. It's like everything weighs five kilos. As you said, one shopping bag, that's five kilo. It's just so silly. and it's just that the advice just isn't specific for the individual. Unfortunately. Yeah. I just say it all the time, which is why I'm so passionate about talking about this stuff.
Jen Dugard (23:51.197)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (23:56.03)
Absolutely. And I guess let's move into like the online aspect in that, you know, we're talking about these blanket statements and the online space is probably one of the key spaces that there are these blanket statements and maybe programs that are for you if you have X, Y and Z, which I don't understand how we actually do that. But how do you think people can better navigate the online space with so much overwhelm and trying to figure out what exactly is right for them?
Dani Antonellos (24:24.962)
Really good question. is getting crazy at the moment. then Instagram, TikTok, everyone just is trying to get views. Yeah, everyone has a microphone and you know, even if they just got their cert three, it's like, and four, the next step is, okay, get your microphone and start talking about it without even seeing any clients. That's crazy. But you know, we do have, that's why we're doing podcasts, right? We need to get in the online space. That's where the industry is and the world's going. However,
Jen Dugard (24:30.885)
Everyone's a fucking expert, aren't they?
Dani Antonellos (24:53.976)
There's no filtering really. You don't need to have a qualification to record a piece of content. Like back in the day where you'd get checked with your first aid, show me your certificates. There's none of that online. So it's just crazy. I think it's best.
still if you're completely new to training or completely just unsure what you're doing to try and find someone face to face, particularly when you're learning new movement patterns in the gym. Online is fantastic. However, if you're never set foot in the gym, you get nervous at the idea, you get a little bit overwhelmed with technology, you know, I still think that face to face is the way to go. When it comes to picking a therapist,
I wouldn't focus on their title, no matter whether they're osteo, physio, chiro, whatever we've been listing. I think it's important for you to find out about them. Do they actually practice in a way that aligns with your values? So maybe they are teaching movement as an osteo or a chiro. You know, you've got heaps of chiros who now teach movement or whatever your values are. Find out how they practice and
stalk them online if they have an online presence to see if they're actually working with clients. Do they have the proof? Because we can all talk the talk, but a lot of the time the people are really good at getting the lighting and videographer, you know, and they know the three second hooks to get you watching the video. But then a lot of them have so much time to make nice videos because they're not out in the trenches working with clients.
And you see it all the time because being a good trainer, therapist, business owner, it's a completely different skill set to being a content creator. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (26:47.796)
Hmm. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? At the moment, what's popping to my head is all these dudes that think they have the right to talk about women's bodies when they have no qualifications. I don't know you've seen, have you seen the TikTok videos and things at the moment? Yes. Yes, you have. I can hear it in that.
Dani Antonellos (26:57.069)
Yes.
Dani Antonellos (27:01.592)
There's a lot going around. I know it's so hard to like bite your tongue sometimes, but then I also don't enjoy when people make content purely just retaliating because we know there are people out there saying things that we don't agree with. And it's kind of like, well, when do I step in versus when do I just turn a blind eye?
But then if you are turning a blind eye, it's kind of like ignorance. So I'm still navigating that. kind of look to see what the masses are sort of viewing and what's floating around. And then I go, nope, okay, back to my lane, back to my message and continuing to do that. Otherwise you can just get really angry and distracted.
Jen Dugard (27:39.429)
Yes, you're right. I, yeah, I put up the old angry pose from time to time, but I do spend a lot of time if I'm choosing to do that, consciously choosing it and knowing that I'm spending energy in a place that may or may not be productive in that outcome. Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (27:51.767)
Yeah, that's okay. That's fine. And you still continue to share your message of what does help because there's no point. I, see people putting up all the angry posts, which is okay. Good on them standing up what they believe in, but then provide your audience with something they can do. Then there's a lot of what not to do, but then we need to then follow that up with here's what I recommend.
Jen Dugard (28:16.379)
Yep, absolutely. Danny, you do a lot of work in the online space. Tell me more about that.
Dani Antonellos (28:23.894)
I do, yeah, online, my online grew when I was at uni in lectures. I was sitting in the lecture theaters, I know, with my laptop and a lot of the times I thought I could have just stayed at home and watched this lecture, but there were some of them where they would mark your attendance. So you had to rock up, even though no disrespect to the educators, like I'm grateful for that, but they were basically just reading off the slides. So I thought, how do I use my time better?
Jen Dugard (28:50.29)
Hmm.
Dani Antonellos (28:53.57)
Well, I still love training people as a personal trainer. I'm going to create an online business because I had an online coach myself when I was doing my competing bodybuilding. So I kind of modeled what she was doing and learned how to download a platform, prescribe exercises. So I really grew that online business through uni. And then it wasn't until one day,
I had a really bad stomach bug and I had to clean my whole week of face-to-face clients. And then I realized I can't have all my eggs in one basket here because I just literally lost like 30 bookings in one instance. Okay, I really need to put more effort into this online business. And then lockdown came and a lot of us really didn't have a choice.
Jen Dugard (29:39.229)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (29:46.795)
Luckily, in a sense, obviously we all have our experience with that time and I won't dive too deep into it, but one silver lining for me was, well, now people actually do see the value of online coaching, whether it's personal training. I did a lot of zoom, like allied health, one-on-one type appointments, and I still do that to this day. and it's just awesome because you can reach people all around the world. It's just, as you know, you know, you've got, you've got people around the world as well. And it's.
Jen Dugard (30:11.495)
Hmm.
Dani Antonellos (30:16.76)
Fantastic. So I feel like before someone goes online, you really do need to put in the groundwork face to face. You need to see how people are moving, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people over and over again to get that eye for it. Get your people skills right and your communication skills because you've lost a lot of nonverbal cues when you're online. So people take words very literally, but you might.
Jen Dugard (30:24.187)
Yep.
Dani Antonellos (30:43.47)
have a client who doesn't like using emojis or, know, you just interpret, they must be angry. You just interpret things a little bit different through language. So get your practical skills up, get your communication skills up. And then I feel like that's how you can earn the right to go online because it is, although there are lots of benefits, I feel like people are wearing it with a badge of honor unnecessarily. They're jumping into it a little bit too early to sort of live that quote unquote laptop lifestyle.
where we know, well, I think for people's duty of care, don't go online until you've actually got some experience working with real people.
Jen Dugard (31:21.253)
Yeah, and it's funny, isn't it? I wonder whether some of that comes from so many of our certifications being delivered online. So people don't get that face-to-face experience from the get-go and then they think, well, if I can learn it online, then I can teach it online. I think it's, I really struggled as a personal trainer to run any online and maybe I should have nailed it, but I went, should, should's an interesting word. It was always whenever I tried to give someone a...
Dani Antonellos (31:35.714)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (31:46.714)
session online it was like okay but I need to video you doing these things and I need to see what you're doing and I don't understand like you know I probably approach it in a very different way now. How do you maintain and I'm hearing what you're saying you're out you know you've done hundreds of hours of in-person work before you get to work with someone online but what would you say to a trainer that wants to work with people online that may or may not have done a lot of face-to-face so we know go do more face-to-face refine that way but let's say they have done that.
What are the key markers to maintain quality and make sure your clients are getting value rather than just prescribing a squat and assuming everyone can do a squat?
Dani Antonellos (32:24.694)
Yeah. And you nailed it with videos. You know, you need to, if you're not doing a one-on-one zoom and you're using either, hopefully a platform now, I don't know if spreadsheet people still use PDFs and spreadsheets, but I'd like to think that we could be a little bit more advanced and download an app. allow, give them space to upload videos to you and a lot of the platforms online that you can use for coaching.
Jen Dugard (32:27.901)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (32:50.434)
have a button next to each exercise and then your client can upload a video of them training. And that's when you need to sit down and view it and watch it and then give feedback. So your feedback is really important, but with online, you know, you can only give as much as what your client gives to you. So if you come across a client and you do your consultation with them and they say, look, I really don't like filming myself, well, then you're going to have a problem. So
then you have to refer out, I suppose. But in this day and age, most people are okay with filming. If they're not in the gym, they can do it at home, but you need to still be watching their videos. That's number one. Otherwise you literally cannot see what they're doing and it just won't work.
Jen Dugard (33:34.535)
So it's almost like in those T's and C's, like, you know, part of the way that I online train is that I need feedback. If you're not willing to create videos for me to see what you're doing, then this isn't gonna work. And just having that boundary. Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (33:45.679)
Yeah, for higher end coaching anyway, because we have our training app as well, but we don't look at people's videos on that. So I just need to make it clear. But if we're here to do a really good job and give a premium service, then yes, it's more personal. You are watching the videos, but then for lower level for people paying $10 a week for something, you know, you can't really expect your coach to sit down and watch your videos. So
Jen Dugard (33:54.3)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (34:09.93)
You can have, that's a good thing with online. You can sort of build different models and different tiers for people to move through. And then you sort of keep your clients depending on what they're up to or what they need, whether they're in your premium. And then they might sort of graduate and feel confident to do things on their own, but they still want your programming. Okay. Maybe they don't need the regular check-ins, but they, they want to jump on the training up instead.
Jen Dugard (34:26.941)
Mmm.
Jen Dugard (34:31.771)
Yeah, yeah. And then from a business perspective, Dannex, I know there'll be people listening that are like, I want to grow my online. How did you, like, it's not like we talk a lot about becoming locally famous, you know, if you're a local personal trainer that works with moms, get out into your community, make sure people know who you are. How do you, what's the best way you found to do that in the online space?
Dani Antonellos (34:55.362)
Getting to know people around me. Yeah. You nailed it in a sense that I really put myself out there to meet people who I looked up to in a sense. Like I mentioned, Andrew before my online coach, Hattie, Hattie Boyle, she was really big in the bodybuilding space and still is. So personally, I modeled people and took little bits of their brain and their knowledge to then, see how the best of the best stood in my eyes.
and then created something on my own. But then it's also by association as well. I, yeah.
Jen Dugard (35:30.331)
Yes, but how do you get people to know who you are to buy that?
Dani Antonellos (35:35.022)
Through, ah, okay, so if they find out who I am, yeah.
Jen Dugard (35:38.641)
Yeah, so how do you get your clients? If you can't go down the road and give out flyers, very simple example, how do you become known in the space online and get clients from all across Australia?
Dani Antonellos (35:52.419)
Yeah, well, that's your online content. And when I did meet those people and I was seen with them, ended up making my business with Andrew. But then even before that, I went to his seminar and I know I'm answering it in a face to face aspect, but I don't want to pretend and give false information and say that, you know, I didn't do that. Like I still got myself out there. I would fly into state to go to people's seminars. I'd be
Jen Dugard (36:12.668)
Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (36:20.438)
right next to them in the photos, I'd put my hand up to demonstrate. So then I'd end up in their videos. And it's literally just by association and putting your ego aside and realizing, hey, I'm with someone now who I'm big on respect. Like I will always respect people who are doing the work and putting themselves out there and giving good messages. then I just, you've got to gravitate towards those people. And even if it's just one.
awesome, but it is by association. And I feel like I climbed the ranks in a sense of being recognized more because I did have my student mentality and my student hat on and then just almost idolize these people to really get to know them and the right to become a friend. and so they would spend the time to teach me things. You don't just get taken under someone's wing by accident. think it's true.
Yeah, showing that respect, showing the ability that you want to learn from them, but then ending up in the online content and people keep seeing you together. And then it's just a trust thing. You know, if you're hanging around really awesome people and doing the work and putting yourself out there, then you're going to be seen with them. Then you're to be associated with that person. It can grow your online platform. the bodybuilding was massive. got a lot of my followers naturally from bodybuilding, but I don't.
I don't dress like that anymore. don't, you know, my followers don't climb as high as when I was competing. but even that people competing wasn't as prevalent. So I showcase that journey online. So it is just about showcasing yourself online in a sense of doing the work show that you were a student and you were upskilling and learning from other people show your training journey. So it's not just you with a microphone talking the talk. You have to prove that you actually know what it feels like to challenge yourself.
Jen Dugard (37:42.471)
Hahaha
Dani Antonellos (38:10.318)
through those mental barriers and reach goals. Then yeah, just online content, know, podcasts, like what we're doing now, Instagram, and just having a good website. Like what we were talking about sort of when I was explaining about my website, even off air, like you can have the content, but it has to go somewhere because a lot of people can actually get addicted to making the content and getting likes and follows, but there's no point having
a hundred thousand followers with no customers as well, because you need to really spend time nurturing the customers that you do have instead of trying to get more, then losing them and they're not, you know, signing on for your coaching. So I hope I answered that. Okay.
Jen Dugard (38:55.815)
think that was an excellent answer because what I think, I'm gonna say what I know, what I get about the fitness industry and those coaches that say, I wanna be online, is there's an element of them that thinks it's gonna be easier. And there's an element of them that thinks they now get to sit behind their computer and people will come. But what I'm actually hearing is like, actually, instead of getting off your ass and going down the road and giving out flyers, you need to get on a fucking plane and go to make a fuckload more effort to...
Dani Antonellos (39:22.284)
Yes. Yes.
Jen Dugard (39:25.105)
be in the right places, doing the right things, get to know people. So I actually think that was a really good reality check for anyone listening that thinks that creating a beautiful online program is gonna let people just come to you.
Dani Antonellos (39:37.185)
Exactly right. It really won't. And I feel like personally online is much harder in a sense because I've, I've spent, I think it was a year purely online without any face to face. And that was, yeah, transformational. It's never wasted time, but people don't even, they think, okay, I can take my laptop anywhere. They, they think that online means
freedom of flexibility, which it cans in some element. However, going from being a face to face trainer or therapist and then sitting down, you know, on your computer or wake like your body hurts. It really, really hurts. And a lot of trainers have a lot of, I've got a lot of energy. So you're sitting there stuck on your computer.
Jen Dugard (40:18.172)
Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (40:28.94)
Your, your back is hurting because you're not used to sitting down. You're bored and you get distracted by something next to you. Like the notifications are coming in 24 seven because maybe you haven't set some boundaries, which we can even discuss. it is a big reality check and it is a lot more lonely because a lot of trainers are extroverts. And then all of sudden you're online and yes, you might have a lot of clients and, things like that. And you're typing to a lot of people, but.
nothing will ever beat real life human connection. know, this is still awesome. Online is great. However, the feelings of just having someone there with their energy, it gets taken away when you move online. So personally, I'm using it for its benefits and I know you do as well. It's fantastic. However, I think to enjoy it fully for the rest of your life, you still need a tiny bit of face to face, whether it is
Jen Dugard (40:58.429)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (41:23.208)
you know, going to a seminar or the fitness expo or just something that challenges you. Otherwise you can easily get stuck on your computer. You lose your face to face social skills and then you'll end up resenting the online. I feel anyway.
Jen Dugard (41:40.198)
And I think there's also a cohort of trainers who have that going on and the clients are not coming because they've not nailed and then you know that your whole world is falling apart because you don't have that person to person connection and you feel like you can't can't get clients anymore because they're not literally sitting on the gym floor or in your local suburb or whatever it may be. Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (41:49.325)
Yep.
Dani Antonellos (41:53.812)
Exactly.
Dani Antonellos (41:58.925)
Yeah. Yeah. You have to be a good person because, I speak to a lot of the trainers, you know, in our mentorship and everything and good on them for wanting more information and into wanting to learn. However, it gets to a point where you can only do so many courses until it's like, come on, when are we going to start taking action now? Because you've got all your books and you've printed everything out and you've highlighted everything so neatly and it's organized, but like you still haven't.
tried to get a client yet, or you still haven't actually put anything into practice. It's just that false sense of, I'm nearly ready. I'm nearly smart enough. I nearly know enough. Well, the best way to learn is actually not with the books. It's just getting out there and having a go. And you're going to stuff it up, but you just have to keep going. Honestly, everyone I've spoken to who is successful, we've all made mistakes. And you look back and have those cringe moments, but those cringe moments are what
Jen Dugard (42:47.889)
Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (42:56.724)
make you get better for the next time and the next time.
Jen Dugard (43:00.047)
Absolutely. I was walking the dog this morning and composing a solo episode in my head and I definitely go into the trainers that just think that the more education they do, the more confident they'll get and then the better their business will be when it's not right. Like there'll be the best kept secret at the end of the day. Danny, you talked about your mentorship. What does that look like? And you're, you know, I know you're very passionate about closing the gap between allied health and the fitness industry. So dig into the mentorship. Tell us a little bit of what that was.
Dani Antonellos (43:16.803)
Yes.
Jen Dugard (43:28.635)
what that looks like and then how that is closing the gap.
Dani Antonellos (43:32.195)
Yeah, thank you. So this is one of our big projects that we've been working on for the past few months. It's through United Health Education. So, and I won't get into the story in too much depth, but losing Andrew Lockwood, unfortunately lost him to brain cancer in end of February. And that was, yeah, massive for the business. Obviously he was a main figurehead, you know. So we really had to go through, okay.
Jen Dugard (43:49.392)
I that.
Dani Antonellos (43:58.029)
This is obviously one, a really bad situation, but how do we create a space where the work is not lost? Because, you know, I feel like the world really lost someone super special and he was only just making waves, you know? So that's one of myself and his wife Julie's driving force was, okay.
Jen Dugard (44:05.917)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (44:17.464)
come on, there are still so many trainers and allied health professionals out there. How do we keep this message going? Okay, it's through mentorship online because we've got the courses, but, and we may not be able to replicate our online seminar, our face-to-face seminars anymore without him, but we can at least help to bring the information to a community where we can go back and forth and have those discussions of case studies and questions and allow people to feel safe.
in a world where there is just information overload now. So we figured, okay, we nailed the courses, however, the mentorship is what's next. So this is for personal trainers or allied health professionals. Yeah, and you can join in and we have a monthly call where we go through case studies, again, questions that trainers have, and we really want to encourage people.
to feel confident to teach movement, whether you are a trainer or allied health professional, you can slot it in amongst your current routine. We know not everyone has the flexibility to work online or maybe they enjoy hands-on therapies, which is great, but we all need exercise in our tool belt. So it is bridging that gap between not really knowing about exercise, whether you're allied health or a coach to then being able to use it when needed.
while creating your life. We're big on that. It's not just about come in and then you pop out as an avatar of us. It's like you come in, get really confident and live a life that you want based on the clients that you enjoy training, the way in which you enjoy practicing. Yeah. So it's just a big sort of confidence boost. And we really pride ourselves on taking information that's made to feel complex and really just delivering it in such a simple way.
Jen Dugard (45:42.983)
Hmm.
Dani Antonellos (46:11.106)
And that's what gave me confidence to be able to work alongside Andrew as a new grad. Not going to lie. I've literally just graduated when I started working with him, but it was because he instilled in me, no, don't have to, A, I didn't have to be as smart as him because he was, he'd been doing it for decades and it was just impossible. And then he said, B, we need to be able to teach our clients in a simple way. And it's, and it's a lot easier as well to do that, which is great. So yeah, that's
Jen Dugard (46:35.015)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (46:40.204)
the barrier that I find with a lot of people in the industry, just paralysis by analysis, they never feel smart enough, they never feel ready. But it's like, well, no, it's it is actually really simple. We're going to teach you in this mentorship, how can feel simple for you, and then feel simple for your clients.
Jen Dugard (46:57.681)
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there in that a lot of trainers feel like they don't know enough and it really does hold them back from the amazing things they can do in the world. And I think that was, I had a really great mentor way back when I was a PT.
when I first started and he was like, just learn the basics and then teach your first clients the basics. And then when you're ready to learn the next bit, learn the next bit and then teach them. And really you only need to be like one step ahead. And obviously we get to the point where we're many steps ahead of our clients, but in those early days, like building that confidence by teaching other people is the best way to go. Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (47:32.909)
Yeah. And just being a good person, you know, if I seek a service from someone, yes, okay. They have to have some knowledge in the service that I'm seeking them out for, but I just want to go have a chat, be around someone that's friendly, you know, be comfortable to share what's going on in my life to that person within reason. You know, it's not just about, being a trainer who's really intellectually smart with no people skills, like what we see a lot online. I don't, I really don't think that that's realistic. You can,
spend less time with your head in the books, but more time, you know, with people's skills. And I feel like you'll actually get further in life that way.
Jen Dugard (48:09.541)
Agreed, agreed. Danny, there's a couple of topics that I want to touch on before we start to wrap up. So the first one being, you know, from a career perspective, you wear a lot of hats. So you're a clinician, you're an educator, you have your gym, you've got your podcast, you do your own training. What are some of the key things that you can share with the audience about how you prevent burnout yourself?
Dani Antonellos (48:31.278)
And I definitely learned this the hard way. I feel like I was so close to burn out final year of uni while I was competing as well. And that was the closest I came to burn out to be honest. But at the end of the day, we always have to prioritize our own physical and mental health and wellbeing because if we're not looking after ourself, nothing else matters. And I really learned that this year.
You know, health is everything. So we do often see trainers putting their own health on the back burner and getting into the hustle culture, which look, sometimes you will have to skip your workout and do your work. It's going to happen. However, as a whole, you have to develop a set of habits where they're non-negotiables and you do prioritize that. And that could be your sleep habits. It could be making sure that you are.
doing a certain amount of training sessions a week. It could be having some downtime, going for a walk with a friend or, you know, going to the beach or whatever makes you feel good. You still have to have that. Otherwise you're on the hamster wheel of life and you're burning yourself out. Your health is going downhill. And then that does impact your business as well, because I find that you're also not resilient. You don't make good decisions. And as you dive into business, decision-making is everything, but that comes from
having a clear mind, which then comes from, how well have you been looking after your mind? So yes, we can work and work and work and get more money. However, it's not worth doing that while sacrificing your own health and wellbeing.
Jen Dugard (49:54.737)
Mmm.
Jen Dugard (50:07.109)
Agreed. I don't think I could have said any of that better myself. I love it. And if we think back to the topic of conversation at the, I was going to say Women's Health and Fitness, wasn't that at all, the fitness expo that we were at not long ago, we were talking about women and leadership. What would one of your biggest messages be to women who are wanting to step up in the industry in any kind of, from any position?
Dani Antonellos (50:09.87)
Thank you.
Dani Antonellos (50:22.509)
Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (50:37.73)
You really, really have to just back yourself because no matter the challenges that you undertake or how high you climb, if we're talking in analogies, you're always going to feel nervous. You're always going to feel unsure and have those voices in your head saying, am I worthy of this? Should I be here? But you need to learn how to really just sit in that discomfort because
When something means a lot to you and you are stepping up and you have more eyes on you and more people relying on you, you know, the pressure does climb, but people think, you know, I'll take action when I don't feel those things. But then whatever you're taking action on obviously isn't that important because if you really care about it and you're putting yourself in the limelight, you're going to get those feelings. So don't let it stop you from taking action. Don't let the voice come in saying, I'm not ready yet. You know, you can only prepare so much, but.
you do just have to dive in no matter what you were doing. It's gonna, those feelings are gonna come up. And I feel like most of us can relate when we are doing something that's new. You're gonna have the feelings, but you just have to park those and show up for the people around you because it's not always about us. It's actually about the people that we're serving and you don't want to do them a disservice by not showing up. So even if it wasn't your best performance or you look back and could have done things better.
At least you showed up for the people who wanted to see you and hear from you.
Jen Dugard (52:07.515)
Hmm. I think the biggest takeaway from me for that was well, obviously you've got to back yourself But it's not about you and if you've got a gift and a way that you can help people It's almost your obligation to put yourself out into the world and get over any of the stuff that's going on in your head in order to support those people Yeah
Dani Antonellos (52:25.538)
Yeah, exactly.
Jen Dugard (52:27.581)
And Danny, tell us a little bit more, if someone wants to find you, so they wanna find out about United Health Education, we've not talked a lot about pattern performance, but you have your gym, like where are the different places that they can get to learn more about you and yeah, connect if they want to.
Dani Antonellos (52:44.268)
Yeah, thanks Jen. think the central hub is my Instagram. So at Danny Antonella. So you'll probably have to spell that there in the notes, but I have links to everything. And if you are in Sydney, you're always welcome to come past the gym and have a training session. We're right near the airport. So we get a lot of people flying in and checking out the gym. So yeah, the doors are always open for people to come past and have a training session and have a look. Yeah, please.
Jen Dugard (52:59.643)
Come on!
Jen Dugard (53:06.385)
I should do that next time I'm there. I should, I should. Danny, the last question I want to ask you is if you are to leave your stamp on the industry, what would that be? Your legacy. Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (53:21.634)
I'll go with our, yeah, the legacy movement is medicine. And there's a reason why I deliberately put that everyone on our websites. It's on t-shirts that I wear movement really is medicine, not just for your body, but for your mind, for social health, us as humans, we're made to move. And if we're in a situation where we have an injury or we feel a bit scared to do something, just find. Hey, the right person to help you, but then find.
Jen Dugard (53:26.033)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (53:50.433)
a type of movement that you enjoy. It's not always about hitting PBs in the gym and doing our strength and power lifting, you know, going for a walk or playing a sport, dancing, you know, just find some movement that you enjoy and always prioritize that in your life. And then you'll live a much better life.
Jen Dugard (54:10.109)
I really like that. Do you think that the ability to do that is something that is built when you're younger? Because I know that if I'm in pain, a lot of people, if they're in pain, they're like this, they're static, right? If I'm in pain, it's like, I need to get to the gym and just do the movement that I can do in this pain to move me through. Where does that get built from? Is that an innate thing for some people or is it more that movement's been in your life since you, like, what do you think?
Dani Antonellos (54:22.638)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (54:37.856)
Yeah, good question. No, I love that. Thank you. I think for some people it's innate, but then it can, you there used to be that saying no pain, no gain, but I don't really like that because pain means hang on, we need to assess why there's pain, what's going on. But you do have those people who are a bit...
Jen Dugard (54:37.915)
I know I've just asked you another question, I just about to wrap up and I was like, no, I need to ask this.
Dani Antonellos (55:01.026)
they're just really driven and push through anything at their own detriment. So that's innate, I feel, or maybe they just got a driving force that's causing them to be, you know, psychotic. But it's just through the right education, honestly, because we are, you know, you see a local GP or a therapist who's not passionate about training, they're going to tell you to stop and to rest. yeah, I think it's just by finding the right person to guide you, because it can be scary and often for people who are injured.
Jen Dugard (55:20.903)
Mm.
Dani Antonellos (55:31.03)
They don't want it to happen again. They don't want it to get worse. They know that if they sit still, there's no chance of creating that pain. However, if we sit still our whole life and rest, we only ever get good at sitting still and resting. So it's harder to recover from. but you know, that's why I'm grateful to be on this podcast to share our message of strength and movement and finding what does work for you. But it's, it's still at a point where you do need to seek out a professional who is qualified to help with the specifics.
And then as your injury heals, yeah, it's just about continuing that good movement in your routine.
Jen Dugard (56:06.781)
And I think that, you know, brings us full circle and that really reinforces us as exercise professionals having those close allied health partnerships in order to keep our clients confidently moving forward.
Dani Antonellos (56:18.316)
Yeah, yeah. But now I actually really enjoy training the personal trainers and teaching them this. yeah, that's, that's why we actually have majority of trainers in the people that are following us, which is amazing. I think, yeah, a lot of the allied health professionals are fantastic, but they're very academic and it does fall into that thing that we mentioned, you know, just very research and where's the evidence. And you see that a lot online, but it's like,
Jen Dugard (56:23.899)
Mmm.
Dani Antonellos (56:46.766)
I kind of enjoy how the trainers know that they don't know enough, but then they're still very practical and they do have those people skills. yeah, trainers, you know, get onto the courses, have a, have a look. feel like they're mainly for you guys, to be honest. because yeah, just because you don't have a title doesn't mean you actually can't do a better service than someone who does have an allied health title, to be honest. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (57:02.173)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (57:10.333)
Yeah, we have less blinkers on and more ability to look outside the box and create the right solution for the right individual. Yeah. Yeah.
Dani Antonellos (57:15.074)
Yeah, totally. That's what I've found, absolutely.
Jen Dugard (57:20.209)
Dani, thank you so much for joining us. I've really enjoyed our conversation today and I'm hoping that our paths continue to cross. Maybe we should just make them cross. That would probably be a good idea. And I feel like everyone's gonna have a lot of value out of what we've had to say. Team, do jump across to Dani's social. She puts a lot of great content up there. Give her a follow and have a beautiful rest of your day, Dani. Thank you.
Dani Antonellos (57:31.33)
Absolutely.
Dani Antonellos (57:45.58)
Thank you, Jen. You too. That was really fun.
Jen Dugard (57:47.943)
Take care.
