Jen Dugard (00:01.108)
Madeline, welcome to the Mumsafe Pro Podcast. How are you today?
Madelaine (00:05.221)
so good thank you Jen how are you?
Jen Dugard (00:07.604)
I am good. I'm excited. I was looking at our Instagram messages and you know, we had obviously recently backwards and forwards to get you onto the show, but our, you know, Instagram history goes back to 2012, did we say? 2012, crazy. Yeah, yeah. What a journey that we've both been on and we'll dig into how you got here from where you were then as we move forward.
Madelaine (00:23.231)
2012 yeah yeah it is
Jen Dugard (00:35.084)
I would love to know from you Maddie, what is a word that shares how you're showing up today?
Madelaine (00:41.439)
I am showing up with a lot of energy. I've just come straight off my practitioner Zoom call and that got me really fired up. So I'm actually coming in with a lot of energy today and I hope you listeners can appreciate that.
Jen Dugard (00:52.174)
I love it absolutely like fired up in a excited way or a frustrated way or a okay yeah amazing I love it so much and what are you winning at the moment
Madelaine (01:00.504)
no, in a really good way. And I'm ready to share. My worm's on fire.
I mean the biggest thing that's happening in our life actually is that we are moving from Brisbane to the Central Coast. So, it's been a long process but the win is actually just that now we've gotten to that decision, everything's happening for us. We feel very in alignment with the universe and that's my win is realigning with the universe.
Jen Dugard (01:17.738)
wow.
Jen Dugard (01:28.46)
Amazing. Fantastic. And I have to introduce you to a couple of our amazing Mumsafe trainers once you get to the Central Coast. Whereabouts will you be?
Madelaine (01:38.819)
We're hoping to be in the U minor area and actually the clinic that I've had a look at being at has a mum safe trainer. Perhaps I didn't say your name.
Jen Dugard (01:45.618)
Lisa! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing! Yeah, she's the only, she's the one up there that has a clinic so Lisa is beautiful. And what are you working on? Like maybe that's part of your working on but I don't know.
Madelaine (01:53.992)
great.
Madelaine (01:58.342)
Yeah, so, well, I'm working on rebuilding my practitioner business as fast as I possibly can on the Central Coast, but I'm also in the process of launching a practitioner container, business container called the Embodied Practitioner for practitioners who love to work in the women's health space, and I'm helping them to grow their business.
Jen Dugard (02:19.967)
Amazing so there's probably other well there is a lot of similarities between what you're doing in the practitioner space and then what I guess I'm doing in the exercise professional space so there's a lot of crossover. Yep absolutely lots of zooms in our future. Give me a little bit of a background so you know if you think back to 20
Madelaine (02:32.095)
Absolutely, absolutely. I think we could be best friends, Jen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jen Dugard (02:44.717)
2012 what were you doing then what got you into so I you started in the pre and postnatal space how did you exit that space and get to where you are today and then you've got multiple businesses that you're running so give us the Long or short of it. It's entirely up to you
Madelaine (02:59.519)
Absolutely.
I started as a PT in 2010 and I very quickly started to fall in love with working with women. I think as you do when you are a woman, that led me into some opportunities to work in the pre and postnatal space. I trained at that age. was 23 when I first or 22 when I first did my pre and postnatal qualification. And I was the youngest there by far. And I do remember us.
Jen Dugard (03:29.613)
Thank
Madelaine (03:31.521)
what is an episiotomy and are they common? And the trainer pretty much sort of, not rudely, like giggled and said like, how old are you? And one day you'll learn that this is fricking common as like most women experience this or most women experience some type of a birth injury. And I've never forgotten that moment I think because of, for a reason I never forgot that.
which we'll get into later, but I was also at that time starting to be a myotherapist and very quickly once I became a myotherapist I started to again work in the women's health space and not long after that I had an opportunity to go to the UK to learn about c-section scar release and very very quickly my practice started to evolve with that information and again I still hadn't been through childbirth myself and it was the information
that I put out there for C-section mums, couldn't believe how quickly they flocked in for this type of a treatment. And that has stuck with me forever. While we're on that topic, I didn't actually birth my babies by C-section. I birth them vaginally. And I think it's just always important to know that as I share a lot of information about C-sections today. And then here I am from a business aspect. Three years ago, my family and I relocated from Sydney
Jen Dugard (04:50.881)
Yeah.
Madelaine (04:56.753)
to Brisbane and now about to sort of start to make the journey back towards that space to be with our family and friends. But along the way, my business has evolved from personal training, myotherapy and personal training, women's health myotherapy, and then education in women's health myotherapy. And now business coaching for practitioners in the women's health space.
Jen Dugard (05:14.562)
Mmm.
Jen Dugard (05:19.627)
Yeah, it's, mean, number one, picking up and moving a physical business is no mean feat. How did you go going from Sydney to Brisbane and establishing your practice in Brisbane?
Madelaine (05:32.337)
Yeah so this is something that I share a lot of to the women that are in my space right because I came to Brisbane knowing absolutely no one. I think there was one PT that I'd done a course with five years prior to moving up that lived nowhere near where I lived in Brisbane.
But what I did was I aligned myself within a clinic that had my values. So I aligned myself and I work in a beautiful women's health clinic space in Brisbane called Mayer Mothers. Give them a shout out. If you're a woman in Brisbane, it is a clinic that you must go and be held by. It's got an amazing community. But I aligned myself in a women's health space clinic. And I think it's important just to share with other practitioners or with other trainers that I was given
option to work for the business or to pay rent and I chose in that moment to back myself, pay rent even though I still had no client base and I hustled my ass off and within within one month I was fully booked.
Jen Dugard (06:27.094)
Mmm.
Madelaine (06:41.43)
and I then went on to have at that stage my second kid. I was pregnant by the time I got to Brisbane so I worked for four to five months, closed my business, reopened my business six months later and again I was fully booked eight week wait for an appointment very very busy clinic.
Part of that was social media. Part of it was putting myself out into the community, connecting with practitioners, so physio, women's health physios, dollars, personal trainers. A lot of them, some of them are trained by UGEN. Aligning myself within the community to create a business.
Jen Dugard (07:22.029)
When you say I mean you just reeled off a few of the things that you did then when you say you hustled Hustled to get those initial clients Did you do it? So you've you kind of talked about social media and you've talked about creating key partnerships within the community that have the same audience as you are there any other Specific things that you did that you think really moved the needle on getting you from zero to being fully bought
Madelaine (07:46.235)
Yes, so from a social media perspective I was strategic and I did find influences or influential people that had had c-sections to come in and try my work.
I was then able to take like a before and after picture, share their experience. I mean, I always ask, please only share if you feel that the treatment aligned with the result. If it didn't, it's not authentic to me. I'd...
it's not something that I want you to share with your community. So only share it if it feels right to you. The session was free in return for that sort of, I suppose, advertising or marketing.
Jen Dugard (08:30.359)
Yeah, that's really smart because yeah, we think about using social media as, you know, information giving and maybe even paying Facebook ads and there is obviously the whole influencer marketplace. I think sometimes we think that's for big brands rather than smaller practitioners. Did you feel like that was really well received from the people that you approached or how or how did you go about approaching them?
Madelaine (08:37.438)
Mm.
Madelaine (08:46.567)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Madelaine (08:56.446)
I just slid into their DMs and I introduced like I did to you Jen.
Jen Dugard (08:58.157)
Hi! Yeah, true!
Madelaine (09:06.598)
Also, a big part of what I share in my practitioner training is that it's really important that we, my big soul's mission is very big. And it's my, to me, duty of care that women know about this work. And that is why I'm able to slide into somebody's DMs with confidence and say, people need to know this work exists. Can you help me get the message out?
Jen Dugard (09:29.131)
I love that. I really love that. And I also love the confidence and I don't know if you've always felt confident, but you know, the work that I do is so much bigger than me. I have to get it out. And that has such power in helping you to overcome as a business owner, as a female business owner, furthermore, as a mom that is a business owner to kind of push that confidence aside and really step into that, that space.
Madelaine (09:55.199)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I'm just a mom as well. I've got two kids and I'm in it with all the moms. think the moms that most likely, or the women that do your course, Jen, are most likely moms too. And I think it is just nice for them to know that they can do this too.
Jen Dugard (10:03.713)
Yep.
Jen Dugard (10:10.56)
there.
Jen Dugard (10:16.884)
Absolutely, I think the majority of people need a cheerleader. And for me, there's nothing better than seeing someone that might have been sitting on a fence that might have had a part-time job and then wants to move full-time into the work that they do that feels like they don't know enough. And then you're like, well, you know more than the person you're looking after. So how about we step into that and then watching them really, really grow into that space.
Madelaine (10:21.608)
Totally.
Madelaine (10:40.476)
Yep, yep. And that's what I share with my practitioners. Like let me hold your hand and let me be the one that believes in you if you don't yet believe in yourself.
Jen Dugard (10:51.402)
Absolutely I love that. Maddie how have you juggled it all with kids? Well how I don't know what depends what day it is right but give us some insight into your experience.
Madelaine (11:02.902)
yeah look my sometimes I get I don't even know the word maybe it's maybe it's emotional but
My why and my mission is so strong, which a lot of it I think was like womb and feminine activation from actually being pregnant. I don't know if you or your listeners experienced this, but so much creativity came to me when I was pregnant that I possibly couldn't not share this with my people.
But with that comes the fact that, you know, my kids did go to daycare. Also financially, I had to go back to work at six months postpartum financially. I had to show up in that way. So I did have a big driver. wasn't a hobby for me. I needed this to be able to contribute to our family life.
Jen Dugard (11:55.648)
Hmm.
Madelaine (12:01.822)
The other side of that and also our big reason as to why we're moving back towards Sydney is because we've actually had no support from family and friends.
Jen Dugard (12:09.441)
Mm.
Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. I had kids with all my family in the UK and it's a lot.
Madelaine (12:17.211)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's been, I mean, a lot of what you're seeing here is sleepless nights and picking up kids, bang on, like 4.30, coming home, making dinner, coming back. actually, I actually, most nights fall asleep at 7.30, eight o'clock. I'm not, I can't jump onto my computer after, I can jump onto my computer at 4 a.m. Can't jump on it at 8.30.
Jen Dugard (12:37.388)
Yep.
Madelaine (12:45.945)
So a lot of, none of my business has been built outside of like sort of work hours or maybe just a little bit before, but yeah, we've had no support and we're so excited to honestly go back to the central coast. And yeah, I think I did cry when my sister sort of said, you know, we can share the load and I can pick the kids up from school.
Jen Dugard (12:51.5)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (12:57.929)
I can imagine. Yep.
Jen Dugard (13:06.646)
Yeah.
Madelaine (13:09.885)
a of days and you can pick the kids up from school the other day and I was like my god my soul needs this so bad I've I've got two yep my sister's just had her third baby how many do you have Jen? yep
Jen Dugard (13:14.604)
And having like four kids, don't know, have you got three or two or three? Yeah, and how many has your sister got?
okay so two of I have two mine are kind of older now but they're older they're 15 and 17 and with that comes a whole host of other stuff that you don't feel you don't realize that you're to get yourself into when you've got teenagers but I remember when they were littler and it's like you know having someone's other two kids with your two kids four kids is sometimes easier than two and then the fact that you get that time on the other side or when it's been reciprocated is so valuable I'm so excited for you.
Madelaine (13:50.758)
Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And I mean, like we've got, we've created a really beautiful network here, but unfortunately all the, they're all moms too, that are going through exactly what we're going through. So we do our best to support each other, but you can only do so much before you're at an absolute heap. So to answer your question, I have really worked myself hard, but it's come with a sacrifice to some things.
Jen Dugard (13:53.42)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (13:59.596)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (14:09.844)
Yeah, I hear you.
Jen Dugard (14:17.556)
Yep, yep. What do you think the biggest, when you've got no help, what do you think that the number one key has been for you to actually getting stuff done and continuing to move forward? Because I think some women, you know, when they've got young kids, they kind of freeze and go, if I don't have time to do everything, I won't do anything.
Madelaine (14:37.359)
Yeah, yeah. So I've got two parts to that. So the first is, is that I have a work from home day. And actually now I've got like a one and a half work from home day, where I will say on those days I do coach and sometimes I'll have like an emergency client if required.
But otherwise I actually give myself that time. that's something that I had to, mean, as women to ask permission, because I don't necessarily make money on that day. It should in the long-term pay off, but I had to take that risk and back myself and give myself the time those day and a half to look forward and work on my business, not just in my business, working face to face with clients. That's part one.
Jen Dugard (15:05.174)
Mm-hmm.
Madelaine (15:28.667)
I can't even remember now what my part two was to be honest. Yeah, let's just stick with part one.
Jen Dugard (15:35.286)
That's okay. Part one's good. And I think carving out time and being, I love that you've got a whole day. And you know, one of the things that we talk about with trainers is, you know, what is your perfect week? When are you with clients? When can you create a block of time that you are working on the business or doing programming or the admin? And so it's not like ad hoc half an hour in between clients and an hour in between clients here. We have to get really smart with our time. And I really do think that, you know,
If we've got, know we've got a day and we're very focused in what we do. We move forward. And even if we've only got an hour, like there's some women I know that, you know, I'm I'm safe trainers that are, they've got very young children and they're building their business in like literally an hour a day when their child is napping. But if you know what you're doing in that time, then that is what moves you forward. Amazing. Let's, let's change direction and swing into the, the kind of technical side of things. So tell me a little bit. mean, you know, I heard you when you said that
Madelaine (16:22.929)
Yeah, yeah.
Jen Dugard (16:34.527)
when you learn about C-section scar release, was what, I guess it's what lit you up. It's what you realized was, you know, what you were gonna move forward and specialize in. I love it in the fact that it is very specific. And I know that you work with endo clients and other people as well, but I love the fact that you've kind of really drilled down into only C-section, well, into C-section being the key, the key message.
Tell me if I was a trainer working with a mom and she'd had a c-section, I've done my pre-screening with her, I've learned that she's got a c-section, what are some of the further questions that I could ask her about her c-section to see if there was any way that I could offer her support? Because I know a lot of women suffer in silence, they've got pain, they've got tightness, but what are the questions that I could be asking within my scope of practice as an exercise professional?
Madelaine (17:30.717)
Absolutely. I think these first I'll just say that these questions are so important because if you birthed vaginally you get all of the questions about you know how big was your baby and did you have any birth injuries tearing how was your baby delivered forceps vacuum etc. I would start from the from the c-section side asking was your c-section emergency c-section or was it a planned scheduled c-section that's where I would start.
then I would ask the reason for the C-section. Okay, and I'm always very neutral. That might be choice, that might be because of a past birthing experience, it may be because of a past injury in general, maybe because of an endometriosis history. And then from the emergency side, I think it's really important to know that if it was an emergency C-section that they have also labored for an X amount of time.
You also want to understand if there was any trauma involved. was there emotional trauma? Was there physical trauma and what category of C-section were they? So you want to probably know if it was a category one, which is under a general anesthetic or whether it was, a high risk situation, like a category two, or if it was a category three more like, Bob wasn't progressing. It was still a very calm situation.
3 or category 4 is our planned C section.
I also would say it's really important to understand or nicely just get a full picture of whether they had epidurals, spinal taps. Sometimes women, even if they're birth vaginally and also had an epidural, they can experience epidural site pain. So are they experiencing back pain around the site of their epidural? I would then move into more so what's happening with the scar. So are you experiencing pain, tightness, pulling, numbness?
Madelaine (19:30.878)
Have you massaged your scar? Also on that, do you have a shelf is also important to note, especially for diastasis recti. And then how have you cared for your scar? Are you massaging your scar? Have you seen a women's health physio or a C-section relief method practitioner? I've got a whole list of practitioners on my website that has actually looked and assessed at your scar. You know, as you know, in your industry, just because you had birth by C-section doesn't mean that we should skip that step of seeing the women's health physio for an
Jen Dugard (20:00.076)
Okay.
Madelaine (20:00.821)
internal and external check. So I would definitely start with all of those and then I'd also ask some emotional questions like you know how was your emotional recovery after the C-section because it can be an unwanted process and also just a time to listen you don't need to offer advice but just listening to their story.
And it can be so, as we know as women, it's so therapeutic just for somebody to ask, hey, how did it go? have you had, what was your experience like and how did you recover from it? Pause, let them talk completely, don't interrupt and allow them to process what's happened if needed.
Jen Dugard (20:40.927)
Hmm with when you're talking about the different I guess levels of c-section so you've got one two three and four Interesting that they're the other way around than you'd expect them to be in my brain usually it's like four is the worst one is there Not worse not that worse is it actually a word that should be associated with the topic that we're talking about. What are the different is there a different risk of? c-section complications with each level of
Madelaine (20:52.43)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jen Dugard (21:10.11)
C-section.
Madelaine (21:12.124)
Not necessarily. You could still have a category 4 C-section and experience infection. You could have a category 1 C-section and heal perfectly.
Jen Dugard (21:18.291)
Okay? Yeah.
Jen Dugard (21:23.157)
So there's not, know, the more rushed the doctor is, the more likely the scar side is to be a bit more disrupted. I don't know, is that a thing? Yeah.
Madelaine (21:26.905)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Yes, yeah, sorry, okay, I get what you're talking now.
So I will say that I definitely see a difference in scar tissue from a planned cesarean to just your emergency c-section or like all emergency c-section categories usually because they've labored before having the surgery. So they've got muscular activation, they've got heightened nervous system, they've got also their emotions, fear.
sadness, guilt, anything like that to contribute into the scar which our scar does hold those emotions as well. Also it can mean that you're healing from exhaustion as well as the surgery itself.
Jen Dugard (22:16.447)
you
Jen Dugard (22:20.626)
Is there anything in the way that the cut is made, whether it's rushed or not rushed? And I don't wanna throw any medical practitioners under a bus. I'm just interested in the different, yeah.
Madelaine (22:24.668)
Thanks.
Madelaine (22:28.612)
No, totally. If there is a
If there is an absolute emergency for mum or bub, they're very, very so much less careful, but it's still a procedure where they have to go layer by layer. Because if you do go through that last layer too fast, you can cause a whole new level of complication. I have seen a lot of traumatic C-sections, C-sections where rectus abdominis has been cut. I will just say if you don't know the C-section surgery well, it's
actually the rectus sheath that's often cut so it's a vertical cut whereas in this situation the rectus abdominis itself one of them was cut because they had to maneuver baby out of that as quick as possible. So C-sections yes that are an emergency in that situation may be longer they may be a little bit uneven a little bit more jagged but also again I've seen amazing cut one C-sections that are perfectly straight it can depend on the OB
Jen Dugard (23:13.524)
Yeah, okay.
Madelaine (23:31.504)
if you had your paid for private OB or if you had whoever was showing up on the day in that moment to do your C-section can make a difference, their level of expertise and training and all that definitely is a factor.
Jen Dugard (23:44.927)
Yeah, okay. That's all super interesting. I've not actually asked questions and I'll own this upfront and I, my brain's already going, okay, what additional information do we need to put into C-sections in our pre-screenings? Because that is fantastic. And I love that you can come on and teach me all this stuff. It's amazing.
Madelaine (24:02.5)
And I'm actually so excited that this, by me sharing this information with you Jen means that you can now grow and expand in this space too.
Jen Dugard (24:10.122)
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. There's potentially more that we need to dig into and go, okay, what else? What else do I need to put in there without blowing my course out to like 700 days? Because there's always something else to add in there, isn't there? However, we do have you coming into mom safe next year and that's kind of where this belongs. It's like safe return to exercise is that initial certification. And then when we get someone like you to come into mom safe, you're furthering the education of those trainers that are deep diving into this space. So that's probably
Madelaine (24:18.427)
I know, always.
Jen Dugard (24:37.706)
probably where it belongs rather than in the initial certification space, tell me, so, know, signs and symptoms of a scar that needs extra attention.
Madelaine (24:48.539)
Yeah, so physically that will look like the shelf, the lumps and bumps like indents along the scar. There may be visible parts that are swollen. Personally, the mom might experience pain pulling numbness. So our visual look at the abdomen and the scar gives us so much information.
Jen Dugard (25:14.74)
I've definitely worked with women who said, my scars just pulling a little bit when I do a sit up or not a sit up. Sorry. It would be a push up cause we didn't really do sit ups back then. yeah. Is that, I mean, that's a common and a normal experience, but it's also a signal to go get help. Right.
Madelaine (25:20.155)
Yep.
Madelaine (25:24.717)
No, yeah that's another conversation we could deep dive into but yeah.
Madelaine (25:37.881)
Yep, definitely something that I'd say common but not normal. So just because your bestie also experiences that doesn't mean it's normal.
Jen Dugard (25:48.104)
means they can go to the pelvic health physio together. And is it the, should they go to the pelvic health physio first or that should they see someone like you first?
Madelaine (25:57.212)
You could bypass the women's health physio unless they needed an internal check. and I will say not all women's health physios are scar educated. And I've had many clients come to me and say they didn't even look at my scar. They did an internal check, which we love.
Jen Dugard (26:02.26)
which we'd probably send them to do anyway, right? Like best practice, all of you go there, but then book your appointment with you at the same time.
Jen Dugard (26:14.762)
Mm.
Madelaine (26:22.067)
and but didn't even look at my scar, didn't give me any massage techniques. So not all women's, and I'm not bagging women's health physios in that respect, they just simply don't know that that information is required.
Jen Dugard (26:28.788)
No.
Jen Dugard (26:33.618)
Yeah, and I think it's the same across all practitioners, right? We're not all educated the same. Every exercise professional doesn't understand pre and postnatal. Every pelvic health physio doesn't do everything. And you know, every myofascial release person doesn't know necessarily do what you do. you know, exactly. And you've drilled down into this point. So, you know, if it was something else, we go find someone else. And I think that's a key message to get to both trainers and also mums that might be listening is
Madelaine (26:45.562)
Yeah.
Yep. And I don't know everything either.
Madelaine (27:01.881)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (27:03.026)
advocate for yourself and ask questions about the person's expertise rather than just assuming they're a physio or a trainer or a you know a massage therapist and they know what to do. Yeah what does everyone need to do c-section scar release? Okay cool.
Madelaine (27:14.457)
Yeah. Yep.
Madelaine (27:21.145)
My answer is yes. And that might be one session, it might be two sessions, it might be 16 sessions. So I would...
Jen Dugard (27:29.513)
Mmm.
Madelaine (27:32.941)
I would just say that most scars cause some level of restriction. Also, what my session is not actually just about massaging or I say it's not a pretty little pattern over a scar. It's a full abdominal nervous system reset. So, well, I'm sure we can sort of go into this further, but,
Jen Dugard (27:48.554)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (27:52.254)
Yeah, do it. Let's go.
Madelaine (27:54.684)
the whole basis of my treatment is actually based around the breath and a lot of the breath restriction actually comes from pregnancy alone. So I even have, I even recommend women who have birthed vaginally that actually have a pouch but in a different way or a belly button to pubis that just doesn't exist in their nervous system needs this work too. And it's not just the C-section that's causing the problems in the abdominal space, it's actually
Jen Dugard (28:02.506)
Mm.
Madelaine (28:24.817)
the years before falling pregnant, the pregnancy itself, and then it's the birth and also your recovery. As we know that a lot of your best recovery sort of comes in that first 12 weeks if you didn't start exercising till after 12 weeks. You know, we're working on regaining that function.
Jen Dugard (28:31.85)
Mmm.
Jen Dugard (28:44.778)
Yeah, all the research obviously is saying...
obviously but all the researchers say now start exercising start moving as soon as you can you know not full-on exercise pre your six weeks or 12 weeks what while i'm on that what would you say the you know in our exercise guidelines it's you know six weeks after a vaginal delivery eight to twelve weeks after a c-section obviously that doesn't mean don't walk don't do activation exercises don't do some postural exercises but would you agree with the eight to twelve weeks being a longer time period after a c-section
Madelaine (28:57.819)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Dugard (29:18.268)
that a woman doesn't go back to the gym for example.
Madelaine (29:24.001)
I agree with what you've said actually that a woman after C-section should start to still do something. Do you want to know what I recommend? So I'm very big on breath work. So your breath is the only way to mobilize your scar from the inside out. So you can actually start your scar process as soon as you've had your baby.
Jen Dugard (29:33.936)
Absolutely, of course I do.
Mm-hmm.
Madelaine (29:53.837)
by breathing and expanding the tissues under that space. That does two things. It brings blood flow into the scar tissue to stop the adhesion formation after scar.
Sorry after surgery and after whilst the scar is forming but also it is all about Association in your nervous system So what we want to avoid and what I often see in the c-section shelves or the lower belly pooching is actually a Disassociation from that part of our bodies. So the breath is all about keeping that part of your body It was I say like on the nervous system grid
Jen Dugard (30:32.745)
Mmm
Madelaine (30:33.452)
on the electricity grid and as part of your body because so many times I touch a womb and I can tell it's not that part of the body doesn't exist to the brain.
Jen Dugard (30:41.351)
Yeah and there's so much wrapped up in that isn't there? You were talking about the massaging from the inside out but if we think to historically women chest breathe we're told to hold our stomachs very rigid, we suck our stomachs in then you add further potential trauma to that and then a scar that doesn't want to release like there's so much
Yeah, and then if a woman has had any like whether it's sexual trauma or any other kind of trauma, it's all being held in that space. Absolutely. What would your guidelines like what's coming to me at the moment is let's say you've got a woman who has maybe a history of endo or some other pre-pregnancy, I don't know, call it trauma, whether you believe it, you know.
Madelaine (31:09.4)
Yes, even endo and fertility.
Jen Dugard (31:28.059)
Some women are like, well, it's not trauma. It's not big enough. It will call it trauma for today. And then she's had a C-section. Then she's, you know, going through the emotional toll of early motherhood. She knows that she could go and get support, but, or and, the thought of an emotional release through that process is overwhelming.
number one would you help to get her into that space so that she could do it or are there times where it's like well this is probably not the right time to do it now or what? I know I'm asking you ask me to ask you one question at a time but I'm like everything's coming to me and it's how do we support her to get the support she needs and is there any time when we should put this off till later?
Madelaine (32:02.264)
Yeah, yeah. No, no, I got that.
Madelaine (32:12.481)
So, yeah, so that person, let's call her Annie. Yeah, yeah, Hey, Annie, I see you. And I help a lot of women like you, The process is all about creating safety and I will not go and work into your scar if you don't feel safe for me to do so.
Jen Dugard (32:13.843)
from an emotional perspective.
Jen Dugard (32:21.125)
Annie, Annie, I know about Annie.
Madelaine (32:39.264)
The process that I do itself, I actually start globally. So I'm actually opening up the breath first, which we know is vagus nerve, nervous system safety. Once I've opened up your breath, you should be in that beautiful parasympathetic nervous system state. I will then work from the top of the rectus abdominis and come down towards the belly button. I'll do hip flexors and I'm actually not going to release your scar until the very
and only if you feel comfortable for me to do so. I've actually never had a client not by that stage not feel comfortable for me to touch their scar. They are so calm, they're so receptive and they feel very very safe which the Annie that you just described that tells me that she came in she's not feeling safe in her body and she's not feeling safe to receive that level of work by somebody else. I would never touch the scar I always ask on that first appointment is it
Jen Dugard (33:17.811)
Mmm.
Jen Dugard (33:37.79)
Mm.
Madelaine (33:39.068)
I'm going to come into the scar now. Do you feel comfortable with me to do that? And then I'm very open if there is a mental or physical trauma. It's really important that there is no pain associated with this process because if I make that scar painful, which I will say in the early days of doing this work, I'm a very hands-on therapist. I know that I probably went too deep for a lot of women in the very beginning, but now I'm much sort of more gentle and more specific in my approach.
Jen Dugard (34:08.329)
Mm.
Madelaine (34:08.941)
I'm able to actually very openly communicate.
by the time I come to work with the scar. that is, Annie is the person that I love to treat. They may feel emotional throughout the process or they may just feel completely zen and zonked. I have lots of women who experience emotional releases on my table and to me it's absolutely magic to hold somebody through that release because that tells me that their tissues and their nervous system have been
Jen Dugard (34:31.113)
Mmm.
Madelaine (34:46.094)
holding that and then just because I'm on a tangent how does that energy and how does holding the fear from your birth as you said show up in your motherhood journey and how does releasing that emotion out of your body change your journey through motherhood
Jen Dugard (34:48.457)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (35:03.207)
Yeah and then do you prepare that so what happens to them when they leave you like are there some women that you say you know you there's the their rest of the day are you guiding them to begin with if they've had a huge emotional release do they do you talk to them about resting and and all that kind of thing for the rest of the day or it's not normally i know whenever i've done a breath work session i've just been completely out of it for the it's not a
Don't come talk to me, I'm going to bed. Is it the same in this process or is it different? And I'm hearing what you're saying about this. So there's a big picture to this, right? It's a release, is it rest and nurture and then the outcome is change? Or can a woman just go back to work or go look after her five kids, three kids, let's say.
Madelaine (35:32.32)
you
Madelaine (35:38.403)
Yeah,
Madelaine (35:43.886)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I, I'm-
I mean, we're moms, we're women. Is that always our reality to say, need to go to put myself to bed and not parent tonight? It's not always our reality, but I do say if you can, if that is available to you, then nurture that. And I also say just if further emotions come up, like even just to sit yourself in the bath or, you know, say to your kids, mommy needs a pause and you go and do a grounding exercise. So go on, go and put your feet on the grass, go walk on the beach. If your kids are just too much for you in that
Jen Dugard (35:55.229)
Yeah.
Jen Dugard (36:02.568)
Mm.
Jen Dugard (36:20.008)
Mmm.
Madelaine (36:23.132)
take them to somewhere where they can get their energy out, take them to the park so you can just sit and chill for a bit but ultimately like the one way that we can recover from that is like sleep rest and alone time which isn't the reality of a mum. No, no, yeah, yeah.
Jen Dugard (36:36.904)
Not big resources often for mums, I hear you. I do love the grounding though and there's nothing better than when you need that, taking your kids to the ocean, taking them to the beach, everyone gets the goodness of being in nature and it definitely helps the majority of children. I also liked, mommy needs a pause. Like if we all could put that into our daily life, I think that would be something to take. If a trainer has worked with a mum who's...
or is working with a mum who's had some C-section release? Let's say she's coming back into the gym the next day, is there anything that they should be doing with her, should be avoiding, language that they should be aware of?
Madelaine (37:18.06)
Yep, so if they've had a scar release session, the first thing that they should be doing is activate, activate, activate. Because I, yeah, yeah, and RA activation. So we have just created a flowing coordinated system. We got to use it so then it doesn't go away.
Jen Dugard (37:24.648)
okay cool so when you say activate pelvic floor ta activation yep
Jen Dugard (37:42.472)
So the best thing they could be doing is seeing their trainer the next day.
Madelaine (37:45.314)
Yeah, even that afternoon. Just like...
If you're rehabbing, I mean, I see this all the time on Instagram, you know, get, you do your ACL and you get your full rehab program for six to 12 months, sorry, six to 12 weeks post ACL surgery and you get none of that for a C-section, which I'm working on changing. But you release it, right? You come and release the tissues, then you activate, activate, activate, activate to get the quads to work again. Exactly the same with the C-section is we come and open up the whole abdominal space.
Jen Dugard (38:15.57)
Amazing, and then go.
Madelaine (38:20.539)
and now we've got to get that rectus abdominis firing so you can close your diastasis if there's a diastasis and so that you can start to change the shape of your like a lower belly pooch or anything like that.
Jen Dugard (38:32.764)
Yeah. Okay. So on the release work, what I'm hearing, and we, you know, we do a lot of mobility stretches at the start of like a mom safe traditional traditional mom safe session would be,
release work and then we would do activation work which aligns with what you said what I heard you say how can someone with a c-section add either pre-session or you know a lot of our trainers get mums doing pelvic floor ta you know maybe in supine depending or it could be on all fours if we do it in lots of different positions but what does a woman with a c-section
need to do pre the activation to get the most out of the activation in the session with her trainer that she can do on her own.
Madelaine (39:15.351)
Yeah, great.
question, Jen, and I feel like I can actually see your brain ticking. And I'm so happy for it. I'm so, happy because it means that we're making progress, right? You're the lead. You are the leader in helping my mission as well, right? And we can influence the whole new market of trainers to have access to this information. So thank you. I would say in a mobilization for a woman with a scar, you could say, I want you to
Jen Dugard (39:35.61)
Absolutely, yeah.
Madelaine (39:47.136)
spend a minute or two rubbing, literally holding, rubbing, massaging, touching their C-section scar and then their activation would be going straight into, and my personal preference is actually an RA activation, which as you know, when we did our certification, sit-ups were like, if you caught a trainer doing a sit-up to a postpartum woman, you're just shunned from the industry, which we know now is a
Jen Dugard (39:53.51)
Yep.
Jen Dugard (40:15.003)
Absolutely.
Madelaine (40:17.019)
the truth and we want to get the rectus abdominis working. So I would say spend you know whilst you're doing your stretches and mobilizations hands onto scar or even whole belly and
Jen Dugard (40:30.173)
Mm-hmm.
Madelaine (40:32.409)
rubbing the fingers, frictioning the tissue, massaging the tissue. You could even use, if your trainers are Pilates certified, sticking a Pilates ball straight into the scar, taking some nice deep breaths. Now, because I can't help myself, but I would even say for your...
Jen Dugard (40:44.338)
Mm-hmm.
Madelaine (40:53.131)
vaginal birthers and also your C-section birthers, I have found honestly like the golden key to rectus abdominis activation and that is pubic bone release. So actually coming in using your thumbs, popping your thumbs onto the pubic bone and massaging the rectus abdominis insertion into the pubic bone.
Jen Dugard (41:17.096)
Interesting.
Madelaine (41:17.887)
So you could try this yourself. And I actually learnt this through my own postpartum journey because I kept, I'll call it the short circuit. So my rectus abdominis and my abdominal rehabilitation kept short circuiting. And as I said before, I actually birthed vaginally, not via C-section. And my abdominal system was being short circuited by the pubic bone attachment.
Jen Dugard (41:23.922)
Yep.
Madelaine (41:44.353)
And then I started to see this same pattern in most of the women that were also going through what I was going through. So I would actually say if you could even incorporate a pubic bone release, same again, sticking your, getting them to self release, cause the trainer won't be able to do this unless you're soft tissue qualified, but pressing into that rectus abdominis activation before going to do your TA, your pelvic floor and your rectus abdominis activation work.
Jen Dugard (42:02.407)
Yep.
Jen Dugard (42:13.478)
Yeah, I love it. And I think, you know, C-section on O6C section, a lot of women would benefit from being more associated with their abdominal wall in general.
Madelaine (42:25.345)
yeah. And look, let's be real. Most of us still, you know, that is our conditioning, especially millennial moms, to want that to flat tummy. Just don't do it through breath holding and don't do it through sucking in. Actually do it by activating the deep core.
Jen Dugard (42:34.792)
Flat stomach. Yes.
Yeah absolutely and I'm wondering you know obviously I mean I'm not sure how much you've dealt into this but the association with and whether it's internal or external oblique that may be tight that could be inhibiting you know any clothes potential closure closure of the the no no no the abdominal separation my words have gone already.
Madelaine (43:00.215)
Elvis.
Madelaine (43:03.895)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jen Dugard (43:05.415)
So it's, it's almost like who is the woman in front of you? We're going to do some abdominal release work. What do you need? If you've had a C-section, you could do this. If you know you've got tight external obliques, let's do this. If you've got tight internal obliques, let's do this. Um, you could have a box, like you said, of, know, as trainers, even we can use, or we can give our clients to use like the spiky balls or the, know, just using our fingertips. It could be a really interesting addition to that warmup. Um,
section to do more. Yeah. Are they the soft, the kind of medium sized soft ones? Yep. Yep.
Madelaine (43:36.311)
Yep and my favourite is the Pilates ball. We could go through loads of... yeah yeah and you stick it right into your
Jen Dugard (43:48.252)
Yeah, interesting. I know that trainers all listen to this and go, okay, this is what I started doing. Let's do this. And I'm really excited about you coming into mom safe next year and having all the lights of them. I'm I'm trainers brains spark. I'm looking at some of the other. So we've talked about the shit like what is the shelf? Because I know a lot of women will say, I've got a shelf. What can I do about it? I can't I'm trying to lose weight. And it's like, that's not going to go away. What is it? And is it
Madelaine (43:56.726)
Yeah.
Madelaine (44:00.343)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (44:19.077)
release work that will get rid of it.
Madelaine (44:21.632)
Yep, so the shelf is a makeup of a few things and it would take a few things to undo it.
Jen Dugard (44:25.788)
Mm-hmm.
Madelaine (44:31.862)
You know, a lot of women say, I'm overweight and I've got a pouch. Part, only part of your C-section pouch, if potentially, is excess fat or excess weight. It's not the only contributing factor and it's a very small part, portion of the contributing factor, I'd also say. The most common one is actually adhesion and scar tissue itself. So when the scar tissue is actually pinned in towards the, like your deep abdominal cavity,
it's actually the pulling in of the scar that creates the shelf. If the scar was sitting out and not getting pinned, it actually should be a flushed belly. So it's the pinning in, so it's a tight scar and tight adhesions that is actually being pulled inwards to create the shelf-like appearance. So...
It is not just scar release that we need to do. It is usually the whole lower abdomen. We need to work the tissue all the way up to the belly button just about. Sometimes I touch a scar that has a shelf and the scar is actually not tight, but the lower abdomen is thick, ropey, bumpy and all of that. So actually a lot of the adhesions are sitting much higher than the scar. The adhesions can also sit below the scar tissue. So between the scar and the pubic bone. So it just sort of depends
woman to woman that's always very different. And to get rid of it will be the combination of if required, dietary changes, rebalancing your gut after birth. I I'm not gonna lie most of my daughter's pregnancy was beige beige beige and I had to do my own gut rebalancing after that bad boy.
Jen Dugard (46:18.938)
You
Madelaine (46:25.494)
And then the next part of that is your C-section massage to break up the adhesions and to get the scar tissue moving. And then the final step is to activate your deep core and your rectus abdominis to get that part of your body functioning. As I sort of mentioned, primarily when I'm working with a shelf, see that disassociated pattern.
The nervous system basically doesn't know that this part of the body exists. So we need to constantly remind the nervous system that this part exists. If you have emotions associated with your birth, you also probably need to work on those as well. I will also say that it's much easier to rehabilitate one C-section compared to trying to change the shelf of four C-sections, no massage between.
Jen Dugard (46:50.865)
Hmm.
Jen Dugard (47:02.94)
Yep.
Jen Dugard (47:14.535)
So it's not a leave it until you're done situation. No. Yep.
Madelaine (47:15.348)
So, I mean, no. And I was just, you just took the words out of my mouth. So I often get, I'm going to have another C-section. I'll do it after that. No, no, no. Because you actually have the opportunity now to, would, you know, this is the way I word it, to love yourself much easier on the other side. If you do the work now, because you can undo that scar tissue before you go and add to it.
and the idea, know, an OB might say to you, I'll take out your old scar and put the new one in, doesn't actually take away from this external, the scar tissue that's not in the scar itself, but in the whole abdomen.
Jen Dugard (47:55.665)
Yeah, okay. Yep.
Madelaine (47:57.177)
Also, if you are a mom that wants to birth via a V-back or go for a V-back birth, it's also really important that a massage will create strength in your scar to avoid rupture and scar rupture and all of the warning signs that sort of come with having a V-back. So to me, it's really important to make sure that we do that work after each C-section.
Jen Dugard (48:23.418)
Yeah, I like that because I think a lot of us push it off till later. Carry on.
Madelaine (48:27.136)
Yeah and and sorry just to finish that off is that the last point of that is nothing warms me more is that when I've worked with a mama after her first c-section she goes and has her second c-section and OB says your scar is actually really phenomenal you don't have much scar tissue at all and then the healing from that second scar tissue that second surgery is so much better.
a c-section after that I've worked on that's had you know four four openings it is much harder and potentially not possible to undo that shelf. You could reduce it I've seen them reduce and change shape but very difficult to completely get rid of.
Jen Dugard (48:56.102)
you
Jen Dugard (49:00.112)
Yeah. Yep.
Jen Dugard (49:07.822)
Yeah so I think the key message is go get help, go get support. Please do, please do, don't put it off till later. Maddie you've got the C-section scar release method, is that for mums or for practitioners or both?
Madelaine (49:11.32)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, please, yeah
Madelaine (49:23.704)
So the C-section release method at this stage is for practitioners. So body work practitioners, and that could be anything from massage, physio, osteo, chiro, myos, that course is for. Yeah. I did get very, very close to launching a course for moms, but actually then I sidelined that and launched a business coaching course for my pracies.
Jen Dugard (49:37.072)
Beautiful.
Jen Dugard (49:48.123)
Yeah, and sometimes, you know, I think when you step out of the space of doing the thing for the mums and empower your practitioners to do that as much as you possibly can, it really, I remember being in that key crossroad of, well, I want to reach more mums, how do I do it? I can keep going after the mums myself, or we can build this beautiful community of trainers that can actually be out there doing it. Yeah. I love it. I love it.
Madelaine (50:12.086)
Yeah, and that was the crossroad gen. Is it initiation? It is! Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jen Dugard (50:16.902)
It's hard to let go though isn't it sometimes but I guess you're still working with mum so aren't you in your clinic? Yeah so you've still got that contact. Yeah for me it's still it's very vicarious it's like what are they doing out there? I love seeing and we're putting together a super secret it's happening on the 22nd of November so it may or may not have happened before this episode in fact no it will have happened by the time this episode comes out so go check my socials but it's so cool watching our trainers
Madelaine (50:28.585)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (50:43.936)
rally their mums and then you know we've got some media happening off it and all that kind of thing and it's the it's the best thing in the world and I'm sure you feel the same thing same way when you watch your practitioners out there doing amazing things.
Madelaine (50:55.925)
Yes, and I've root for all of them. I'm so, I love seeing them post about their C-section patient results. Yeah. Yeah.
Jen Dugard (51:03.662)
Success, amazing. Maddie, if somebody wants to find out about any of the things that you do, where's the best place for them to come and look for you?
Madelaine (51:12.959)
I mean, the best place is probably Instagram and you can find me at bodylain underscore. But all of my information is on my website as well, which is www.bodylain.com.au. And also I will say that if you are a trainer and you want to refer your client to receive this type of work, I've got a list on my website of all the practitioners that want to be on that list, all the practitioners that I've trained
that want to be on that list is on that page as well. I've got practitioners now all over Australia and New Zealand.
Jen Dugard (51:49.383)
Amazing, beautiful, I love that. Final thing, if you could, well, what is the legacy that you want to leave on the world? Just a little question to wrap us up.
Madelaine (52:03.667)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very little question, Jen. Thank you. I mean, the legacy is what I'm working on right now. And my drive is honestly to hold women the way that I was never held through a lot of these times in my life. But the legacy I want to leave behind is I want to be part of changing how women are treated in the medical and the spiritual realm, really.
I don't know exactly what that looks like yet but my soul and my womb are like on heat to leave behind that legacy and to leave with people knowing who Madeleine Longrig was. Sorry, I'm not two people. Who they were.
Jen Dugard (52:47.942)
Amazing. Well, you're doing the work of many people.
Thank you so much for creating time and space to come and join me and us, everyone listening today. I love, you know, from that message back in 2012 to the one that you sent not long ago and said, hey, I love this episode. If you want to do this. And it was like, yes, please. And now please come and talk to our trainers. Thank you for reaching out. Thank you for creating the space. Thank you for being another part of the puzzle.
Madelaine (53:15.287)
You
Jen Dugard (53:20.186)
where we can help women to really understand their bodies, create body autonomy and then move forward with their lives without all these things that we think that we should be putting up with as women or as moms specifically. So thank you so much for joining me.
Madelaine (53:36.363)
Thank you, Jen, and thank you for letting me slide into your DMs.
Jen Dugard (53:39.82)
Anytime, anytime. Take care.
